How much can a trike carry?

Technical questions, advice, sharing information etc (aircraft, engines, instruments, weather and such)
User avatar
Hotdog
Signed up at flight school
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:16 am
Location: Pretoria

How much can a trike carry?

Postby Hotdog » Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:45 am

Hi everyone,

In preparation for my MPL I had to change my lifestyle somewhat to loose weight. I currently stand at 126 kg's, and have some way to go. I have been trying to figure out the allowable weight for a trike, and have come up with some interesting results. I had a look at the offerings of Aerotrike and Solo-Wings to come up with some basic figures to determine how the weighting comes together on a trike.

If I fly solo things should work out fine, but there might be weight restrictions for front seats and other weight & balance issues. I used a guestimate of 0,8 kg/l for the fuel, and the PAX column is my deduction of what the trike can carry, minus full fuel.

A 503 model seems to be able to carry more than a 582 or 912, so I am making the assumption that the powerplant has more to do with overcoming drag than with lifting weight? Furthermore, what is considered the maximum weight of pilot and pax on a trike? And last but not the least, what would be a realistic goal for my diet? :wink:

That will obviously depend on the weight of my instructor of course. But if I want to carry some self-loading cargo with me some day, what will be my limitations?

Any feedback, ideas and advice will be greatly appreciated.
Attachments
Trike_Weight.jpg
Weight sheet, sorted by PAX weight
Trike_Weight.jpg (38.32 KiB) Viewed 4113 times
User avatar
Morph
The Big Four K
The Big Four K
Posts: 5176
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 3:34 pm
Location: Cape Town

Postby Morph » Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:57 am

The only reason the 503 can carry more weight is because it is lighter than the 582. However more power gives you better climb. A 582 will give you much better climb.

Technically the plane can carry more weight than 450Kg but this will reduce the g rating on the plane. For example if the plane is rated at +6,-4 and you load it to 550kg then the plane will only be able to +4.9, -2.8 G.

A little 503 will struggle to lift this sort of weight.

But it must also be said you will be flying illegally if you are flying overweight and should anything happen your insurances, medical aids etc could have any issue with paying out.
Greg Perkins
User avatar
Hotdog
Signed up at flight school
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:16 am
Location: Pretoria

Postby Hotdog » Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:47 pm

Thanks for the feedback. What I am worried about is that my figures show that with say an Aquila 582 with full fuel will allow only 160kg's to be carried legally. Even if I get my weight down to 100kg's, I will only have 60kg spare, limiting me to softness and small farm animals. :roll:

And then I haven't even taking altitude or density altitude into account. It just does not paint a rosy picture at the moment. :twisted:
User avatar
Tumbleweed
Toooooo Thousand
Toooooo Thousand
Posts: 2349
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:14 pm
Location: FASC

Postby Tumbleweed » Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:36 pm

I trained at 5250 ft on a 503 Windlass, combined weight with instructor 190 kg allowing for fuel to make about 200 kg.

Since have no problem loading all up to 250 kg on a 582 Raptor. Your instructor should advise, alternatively find a nice qute skinny one who's available from 06h00 and around 17h00

I would'nt look less than a 582 though.
Sling ZU FYE - For Your Entertainment
User avatar
Miskiet
Look I'm flying
Look I'm flying
Posts: 223
Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 11:27 am
Location: Petit

Postby Miskiet » Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:40 pm

A lot depends on what equipment you use as well. Most trikers fit big tyres (they are quite a bit heavier than standard). You can use a C-gearbox and start your trike by pulling (good exercise too!) - you then save the battery weight. Electronic instruments are a lot lighter than analogue.......You also don't need to fill the tank to the brim. 582 uses 15 l/hr. If you want to take a heavy mate up for a flip only put in 25 to 30 liters of fuel an keep the flip to less than an hour.

As far as I know the Aquilla 582 is rated to 450kg MTOW? (Though their website states 200kg Payload. Does this exclude fuel?). Otherwise buy a Raptor - they are rated for 450kg MTOW.

Empty Raptor 171kg + Pilot 100 kg + Pax 100 kg + Fuel 50 l 40 kg = 411kg

This leaves 39 kg for coffee and rusks or a small furry farm animal. :wink:

:D :D
User avatar
Arnulf
Pilot in Command
Pilot in Command
Posts: 798
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:44 pm
Location: Windhoek / Omaruru

Postby Arnulf » Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:13 pm

Generally payload excludes fuel.
Useful load includes fuel.

Regards,
Arnulf
User avatar
Dre'man
Flying low - mind the power lines
Flying low - mind the power lines
Posts: 393
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:25 pm
Location: Glenvista JHB
Contact:

Postby Dre'man » Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:32 pm

I am also around 120Kg, Instructor 75-80, (wouldn't want to take softness if she was heavier than that :twisted: )

Just kidding.

We are flying a 582 at 5000 AGL. no problems even at high temp (28-30)

Extra 50m take of roll.
Flying below power lines on DS650X
And above in nothing
"Too much power is just enough"
User avatar
Bacchus
Flying low - mind the power lines
Flying low - mind the power lines
Posts: 375
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:21 pm
Location: Wintervogel C.T.

Postby Bacchus » Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:52 pm

Hotdog!
Jys n lightweight
Just ask John Young how big I am!!!
Aerotrike 582. Cape Town (sea level).
ZU-GFC COBRA
User avatar
John Young
The Boss
The Boss
Posts: 1973
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 8:38 am
Location: Jacksonville, Florida, USA

Postby John Young » Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:08 pm

Bacchus wrote:Just ask John Young how big I am!!!
Bacchus “Oh No Lightweight” MPL,

Ja, ou Bacchus is the type of ou you see walking down the aisle when you’re sitting in your seat on the plane with an empty one next to you and you hope like heck that’s he’s “gonna” walk past and sit somewhere behind you!! :lol:

Downside for Bacchus – he must change his flying wires every 25 hours. :oops: :oops:
Demon wrote:Jee we have a real heavyweight forum I think
Demon,

Bacchus weighs nearly as much as the Sharks front row put together!! :!: :!:

Regards
John ZU-CIB
User avatar
Tower
Going for flight test
Going for flight test
Posts: 193
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:31 pm
Location: Pretoria

Postby Tower » Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:17 pm

I share a hanger with Alan Mac. Believe me pushing his trike out is a chore. Am sure it weighs more than 450kg, without the pilot that is. :D :lol: :D
User avatar
kb
Nothing beats flying
Nothing beats flying
Posts: 436
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:06 pm
Location: Location: Location

Postby kb » Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:45 pm

I weigh 85, and my instrustor, I guess was knocking on 100 - 110 kg. Full fuel, 582, no probllem. OK OK, this is at the coast, but that means 2 things.
1) Move to da seaside.
2) watch the density altiitude carefully. I think that might be the bigger problem, that on a hot day, it's going to knock close on 85 - 9000'.
"The universe is a big place, perhaps the biggest."
User avatar
alanmack
Top Gun
Top Gun
Posts: 569
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 5:02 pm
Location: Virtual Aviation without Geographic Boundries

Weight Watchers, Bumble Bees etc

Postby alanmack » Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:28 am

Yes Bumble Bees can fly!

Helmet, headsets, winter flight suit, boots and a mug of coffee in hand saw me record 127kgs on a calibrated scale a couple of months ago.

Jenya Zozulya and I were asked the "can big guys fly a 503" question some time ago at Petit. Jenya must weight about 80kgs. His response was > We will show you and promptly took a rather concerned me to a 503 windlass with some 1500 hrs on the hobbs. With myself in command we took off at Petit and did a couple of circuits. The climb rate was adequate but not marvelous but I felt confident that we were not pushing outside acceptable limits. I did not try any steep turns etc and kept to my "own rules" see below.

My 100% standard 582 Raptor had an empty weight of 163kg per the plate on the engine frame with a 17sqm wing. With a standard Raptor wing I had no weight concerns in Johannesburg.

My climb rate at the coast has always been significantly better.

I have had 3 wings on my trike. The first with a standard 17sqm Raptor. The second was a sad example of what a Raptor wing can be. The second wing with a heavier trike but without a ballistic chute, two up, simply could not lift the front wheel off the runway. The third and current wing is an AEROSSA topless. This wing is wonderful! At the coast on a long flat beach I can (2 up) take my hands off the bar, increase power and roll without touching the bar, as I climb the bar moves forward automatically and the trike continues to climb until I come off the power when the bar comes back to a neutral position during which time I have not had a finger on the bar. This wing needs to be flown to be appreciated.

When I applied to do the proving flights on the topless wing (it was the first topless wing to be registered in SA) at CAA they insisted on a ballistic chute. Andy Kasperson at Petit did the technical inspections etc and the Raptor trike with the following mods: enlarged front forks, De Necker wooden prop, outsize "beach" tyres, leather seats & leather panniers, belly touring bag, high impact (solid) rear wheel axle struts, medical aid kit, tool kit, sea flare, radio, GPS, ballistic chute and the 85lt fuel tank weighed 238kgs without fuel. With a full tank it is just under 300kgs.

I trained on an Aquilla I at Ballito with Nigel Dorsett who must weigh about 100kgs.

I have done "Johannesburg" training with Mervyn Reynolds on his 582 Raptor with a 16sqm wing that also flies happily. Mervyn must weigh about 80kgs.

As far as the trike is concerned:
- I found that beefing up the strength of the rear axle struts and rear wheel axle stubs (more weight) was a good idea. If you land faster you will increase the chance of a "hard" landing. This will do two things. You will bend your root tube. If this happens replace it immediately. Secondly your rear wheels will flare out. You can bend them back but this weakens the wheel axle stubs.
- I have a flying buddy that is heavier than me and he had a second root tube fitted inside the standard root tube to strengthen his root tube which took care of this problem.
- You must hang your trike off the ground and have a new root tube drilled so that your front wheel hangs above the rear wheels. This means that a person of about 70/80kgs should not fly my trike as the front wheel will be way too high. Landing front wheel first is tricky and is not advised as you need to flare a lot more to keep the front wheel up.

As far as the pilot is concerned:
- Low and slow is out. You must keep your speed up.
- On takeoff you must execute a short field routine on even medium length runways.
- On take-off I keep my trike on the ground longer than most people and keep the bar in until I am 10mph above the stall speed. I then "bump it up" with a relatively sharp bar forward movement but only about 6in forward and then bring it back to keep the speed up well above the stall.
- Your risk of a stall is higher and you need to be aware of your air speed at all times especially when you do not have a headwind.
- Getting off the ground is unlikely to be a problem. The problem is to get through the "mid take-off" zone when you are off the ground but under 100ft AGL. As you go bar forward in the take-off you reduce airspeed. High climb rates on take-off look good but do not go there. If you do you will go into a stall and the trike will drop. In a cross wind you will slide to the ground. NEVER go bar out to climb and add throttle to recover under power when close to the ground. The chances are that you will continue to fall. If you go into a straight and level stall or a slide stall pull the bar in to increase your speed and then ease it to straight and level until your speed is up then climb out. Even if the coastal sugar cane or local mielies are up close and getting personal do not think that going bar out will give you the lift you seek. Bar in and speed will give you the recovery that you need.
- Practice low level flight and trike control just off the ground (3ft) so that you have experience in low level stall recovery.
- It's great to see trikes land on a ticky at or near stall speed. My experience is to keep your speed up. You need to practice near stall speed landings for emergencies but do this at the coast with a long soft beach in front of you where there is more bite in the air and near stall speed float is better. In altitude your near stall speed float can at times fall off alarmingly so keep your speed up.
- I was taught by two instructors two very different techniques. The first was to ensure adequate distance in the final approach. Slow the plane down with bar in neutral starting the final approach up to 500ft AGL then adjust throttle to aim your touchdown about 100m into the runway. 300ft is about the norm for fly-weights. At about 100ft max pull the bar in so that you aim to touch down about 30 ft into the runway. Your actual touchdown will be extended with your flare from about 20ft AGL. In the final "dive" ensure that your airspeed is at the very least 50mph (stall plus 10mph).
- The second technique is not much different in the explanation but very different in the "feel" of it. Essentially you keep more power to counteract a slight bar in postion to keep your rate of decent lower ie more power but bar in so that your airspeed is higher in the initial phase of the movement.
- I got so frustrated with my instructors when I was a student that I eventually sat them both down to sort it out. It was not long before I appreciated the two "approaches" and am thankful today. I use the first approach in calm winds and the second in high winds. In a high headwind you can easily find yourself in a stall, as you flare, if your airspeed is not sufficient. In high winds the "feel" is to fly the trike into the ground vs executing the normal approach.
- If you find yourself short of the runway GO AROUND do not try and extend your approach with a bar forward movement as you are likely to stall.
- With higher speed landings and bad brakes (even with new pads and after a service I have bad brakes) you need to brake to not overshoot short runways. To do this pull the bar in after touchdown as it will slow you down a lot. (One of these days I will treat myself to disc brakes).
- Finally never be complacent - that stall situation on landing and on takeoff happens very fast - always be ready for it and be prepared for the recovery routine. Always expect and be ready for a stall and you will ensure that it will not happen. I have had one brown trowser moment one up (cross wind slide) and another with Paul Lintott (about 80kgs) taking off at Emoyeni.

I believe that flying at MTOW or near the 450kg limit presents critical matters that require additional skills that must be taught to you.

Experienced pilots can adapt. When I flew with Demon in his GT450 I must admit that the instigator was Trixie Heron and I tried to explain that it would not be a good idea however the opportunity saw me having to tug at the seat belts to get in. We took off in about half my normal takeoff roll and climbed out at 600ft pm. It is an incredible piece of kit but without pilot capability the kit alone will not do it for you. I will go so far as to say that the pilot's ability and training has more to do with what you should be concerned about than what trike combination you should be looking at.

I have not had the following experience in an Aquilla and not with my Raptor with the topless wing. I have flown a trike that reacted very badly to MTOW. In this trike when I released the bar in a neutral position, at cruise speed, the bar immediately jerked forward and hit the profile tube as the trike went into a stall. I had to fly bar in with extra power and the trike had little float in the flare causing a hard landing. Beware of the fact that not all trikes rated at 450kg can, in fact, fly safely at MTOW. This experience I believe illustrates that the wing is critically important and you should not only focus on the engine selection. The GT 450 is I believe a 13sqm wing but the 912 provides the extra thrust. "Rockets have no wings but big engines!"

To summarise my advise to you is as follows:
- Do the weight watchers thing if you must but shedding 20kgs is not going to change your weight risk profile significantly > what is critical is that you must learn some basics - well.
- Find an instructor that has a lot of experience with flying at MTOW.
- Resist accepting your MPL until you have flown in all weather conditions and you have done a number of hours of circuits on "new to you" airfields.
- Have your "seat load" increased by getting your front wheel hang position lifted.

I hope this helps and would much appreciate advise from any quarter that is constructive and reduces the in flight risk to us Bumble Bees that simply must fly!
NEMO
I have now joined the ranks of wannabe pilots!
User avatar
kb
Nothing beats flying
Nothing beats flying
Posts: 436
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:06 pm
Location: Location: Location

Postby kb » Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:41 am

shoo wee alan, sucha long post at 1.28 am. WELL DONE
"The universe is a big place, perhaps the biggest."
User avatar
Smiley
Pilot in Command
Pilot in Command
Posts: 922
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:39 pm
Location: 100% Sky

Postby Smiley » Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:02 am

Hmmmmm...!

Yip, the law states 450kg all up weight, but it's so difficult when your weight is 110kg....!

I know it's not allowed, but every now and again I fly 210kg's(Pilot+pax), no problem. :shock:

It's all about the powerplant at the back. :wink: :wink:
Flying tha beast named "Wollie"
ZS-WGT

Springs 122.40
User avatar
alanmack
Top Gun
Top Gun
Posts: 569
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 5:02 pm
Location: Virtual Aviation without Geographic Boundries

Midnight Owls

Postby alanmack » Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:46 am

kb, you should try the night shift. No phones, little traffic etc. Just that flying must be done with SAA! Verbosity does pose a problem to readers as I use voice software and simply tend to chat to my PC which does the work. Being crisp on flying is a challenge for me!

On a serious note, for those of us with more punch to the scale, trike flying is, I believe, a matter that needs to be taken on by an experienced instructor. There are a few about. Mervyn Reynolds at Skyriders cut his teeth on his brother whom I believe is a bigger lad than I am. I recently had Mervyn put me through my paces and intend to do this once a year. Dave Jackson in Ballito too has taken on more than me. There must be other instructors with this experience.

When I looked to fly I was also told that I would have to shed the kgs first. This added years to me getting started. When my second wing gave problems I was told the reason was my weight. The 450kg rating must be real or it must be removed by the manufacturer.

I would like to see a commercial trike developed with a proven rating of 550 to 600 kgs but which has a class restriction of 450kgs. The special purpose Raptors built for military purposes with 912's and a radio box the size of a holiday suitcase were, I believe, tested to 600kgs.

I do believe that others have been taught differently to me. Fly-weight, for instance does not use instruments much. He was taught to fly "by the feel of the wind" by Steve McCurrach at Emoyeni. Perfecting their 2 up skills they too sorted out the axle struts!

I took some time on this matter as I believe some debate and sharing would be invaluable to all pilots without a gravity problem.
NEMO
I have now joined the ranks of wannabe pilots!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests