Getting to the root of the problem mpl vs ppl

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Getting to the root of the problem mpl vs ppl

Postby DieselFan » Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:29 am

Following a few posts and incidents this last weekend...

Training aside the suck thing is 9/10 times I meet a PPL or heli pilot, the moment they hear microlight you get the usual "Not if you paid me R10000!" Every time my family or friends go for a flip in a Cessna etc or meet a pilot and they just happen to mention they know someone who flies a microlight, endless stories about unsafe they are. :roll: :roll: and how they should be banned. In fact I say 9/10 but it's more like 10/10 :evil:

I got to the point where I stop telling people about them as once you told the unknowledgable person about ML's they meet a pilot who makes them doubt everything they just heard as this new guy's a REAL pilot! It's the same flippin defense everytime, oh and Gyros are there too ie all MLs.
:x

REAL airplanes blabla, you don't find me ripping off C172's or R22's! What discredits ML's are the people in the "KNOW" :?

I once had a nice chat with a pilot who flew F15's and flew in the Gulf War, yet he spoke highly of all other planes, I've only met 3 international pilots and they all seemed happy with ML's and knew little to nothing of them, yet had open minds!

So why are most pilots anti MLs? Is it local? Is it snob attitude? :?:

So far the comments I've had haven't been about bad airmanship, just the aircraft type in specfic :?
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Postby Morph » Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:56 am

Good question.

I know a guy who is now retired but has over 20000 hours in 747's and he just loves microlights. In fact he has two on his licence.

I think it is a lack of education and I am not talking about his aviation education wut rather about microlights specifically. This is where we should be welcoming PPL's to this forum so they can learn more.

What is changing is the perception towards 3-axis microlights with even Cessna now building am aircraft in the light category. Planes like the jabirus, Stings etc can compete easily with the other GA planes in performance, comfort and speed.

It's just those damn trikes they are afraid of :wink: :lol:
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Postby RV4ker (RIP) » Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:37 am

IMHO Problem is the media. When a trike crashes it is splashed on all the media channels. (print, TV etc). Armchair pilots then have a field day with I told you so. Similar situation in GA. The number of guys who would not fly in a homebuilt, then when they see the RV they say, but this is not a homebuilt.... IGNORANCE......

I refuse to discuss aircraft types with those who have not at least flown in them. (That why I silent on the egg beaters :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: ). I know a couple big iron jockey/airshow pilots who have 20K+hrs and say they are affraid of ML's, but know nothing about them. I respect that attitude. Not you are mad, simply it not for me, by same token I have no desire to fly 3m above the ground inverted at 200kts...

My old man is another, but he flew Cherokees new out the box in the 60's & will not get into a plane with more than 2000hrs on it. (limits what he can fly somewhat). In their defence they grew up on ali planes & when they last looked at a trike a Windlass was STATE OF THE ART (no respect to windlasses), and that I think is core of the problem.

I had a mate who was into ML's in the early stages in the 80's. He had more prangs on his own than I think there are now a year. Every flight was a test flight. There were no standards and they were pushing the envelope. It reminds me of the story of how the Navy came up with the dive tables. ... :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Trikes have evolved far beyond what was originally anticipated by CAA when they drafted the ML reg's. In the early days they were not much more than soooooped hang glider with seats and wheels. Education is the key. In blik circles the same thing happens to guys who fly homebuilts. The perception is that you stuck it together in your back yard with lawnmower parts, prestik and pop rivits.... IGNORANCE is the mother of all F... up's....

The wright flyer was a microlight and homebuilt. That where it all started and many conviniently forget that.. Given the opportunity I am sure that most would not pass the opportunity to fly the Wright Flyer.... Offer them a flip in a GT450 :shock: :shock: :shock: "What that thing... You must be Mall Boet..."

Only solution is continued education. Like it or not the aviation community in SA is too small to exclude any part. The relative cheap entry into ML's & increased performance machines is what is driving this sector. Soon (if not already) ML's (trikes) will dominate the aircraft register vs "conventional" aeries. Similar fashion to NTCA's vs TCA's.... The more expensive flying get's the more will come from PPL's to ML's. It after all being in the air we are all after....

I relish in the knowledge that the BullShitters out there don't have a clue and actually feel sorry for them. Those that can DO - Those that can't talk.... KEEP THE FAITH...

It up to every pilot MPL, GPL, PPL etc to educate his fellow aviators. Hangar talk is where the bridges between different sectors are built. That in Jhb is almost dead. There are very few opportunities in the circles that I move for this cross polination of aviation sectors. My experience with the ML fraturnity has been mostly good and the social side of things is great. Some of the blik frat take themselves far too seriously, while the ML guys sometimes do not take themselves seriously enough...

Guys who did the formo display at EAA will tell you the reaction they had from Uber display pilots, PPL's and gen public was overwelming... That the way forward....

Off soap box.... :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: hat coat door...
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My 1/4c worth...

Postby ForensicFlyer » Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:18 pm

Ok...

You probably ALL know that I am NOT a qualified pilot yet - of any kind.

As you also know, I am looking into buying or buildng my own aerie and have been sitting on the fence between 3-axis and microlight...

I met old DarkHelmet the other day, and asked many questions - he will confirm...

Now that I have read all this, I have made up my mind: It's Trike for me!!!

Why?

Well - as most of you also know (and probably got tired hearing) I investigate road accidents - very serious ones.

Since one of my reports is more than 300 pages long, covers EVERYTHING from mechanics through road design, braking system, human factors, environmental factors and law enforcement and operational issues, it's not THAT different form aviation accident investigations.

In a recent accident (Wepener) a bus was overloaded with 98 people (in a 65-seater)... We have to say why and how the accident happened.

In less than 6 years, I have investigated over 7,000 accidents around South Africa...

Not - what's the relevance?

I get to see the WORST of humanity at their MOST risky...

I cannot understand why a Trike (ML) would or should be ANY more dangerous than any other vehicle, land, sea or air...

I can honestly tell you that - due to the comparatively lower maintenance schedule regulation of motor vehicles - mechanical failure should be a MUCH larger contributory factor in accidents, right?

Well - NO!

When it comes to mechanical failures, it almost ALWAYS comes back to the original juman element: Some mechanic failed to fix or maintain SOMETHING properly SOMEWHERE!

When it comes to accident investigations, there is always ONE truth that is EASY to find: What could the DRIVER have done differently to AVOID the accident in the FIRST place...

Now - since Boeing pilots are just "glorified bus drivers" they will know that 747 pilots DO NOT look after their OWN maintenance.

No - that highly important job is reserved for a (politically correct) individual fished out of the common gene pool...

So - I ask you: Would you rather be in an aircraft you can maintain YOURSELF, and take responsibility for your OWN safety, or fly a "bus with wings" and rely on an unknown person to "guarantee" your safety?

The main reason why I have JUST decided to go Trike is BECAUSE people (in general) argue that they are "unsafe." CRAP!

How many Trikes (or any other vehicles) have had serious (or any) accidents caused by mechanical unreliability or by being "unsafe" while parked, stored, moored or hangared?

NONE!

I will HAPPILY fly my trike.

I have also noticed in the "flying fraternity" that often pilots treat "non-pilots" with suspicion. Even Radio Control Pilots!

"They" seem to always be kakking themselves that you're gonna ask to fly with them, or "play with their toys..."

I am approached by NON-Forensic Investigators in a DAILY basis, asking about our job, what we do, how we do it, etc. And I am ALWAYS happy to answer their questions. In our field, we (I) am the National Leader. We have THE most advanced investigative model in AFRICA, and we are the busiest accident investigation/reconstruction unit in the WORLD, but I CANNOT and WILL NOT use this as a pedestal!

People LOVE associating with those they look up to and aspire to copy and emulate. So, pilots should learn to accept and appreciate how fortunate they are to be ABLE to fly...

I must also tell you ALL that I think the group on here are a bunch of FANTASTIC okes, blokes and babes!

DO NOT let the "other" pilots or society affect your appreciation for what you do. Do it well, and keep on interacting with those that will know you - no matter WHAT you fly...

I have NO plane, I have NO license and I "get to fly" only about once every two years (other than on FS), and I know how kak it feels to "ask for a flip." So, I do not, lest I be "branded" as a "freeloader."

I KNOW that it is easier to approach a freaking super model and ask her to sleep wit me than to ask a pilot to "fly with them."

When I did the shoot for METRO, I was promised a "flip" in the Oryx's. I looked forward to it, so I went with no reservations. When a certain doctor kept putting me off (like HE owns the damn thing), I decided there and then that I was FED UP with people treating each other with disrespect...

When it rains, we all get wet. When we crap, it stinks and when we die, we rot. No-one is more important than ANYONE else. Who are these @ssholes?

There used to be a guy at the airport (private side) in P.E. and even I knew him coz he used to walk around to EVERY pilot and ask "can I fly with you?" I used to almost TASTE their dislike of this poor (probably slightly mentally challenged) young guy. I know what they used to say about him, and I don't EVER want to be him...

Freeloader? That, I am not. I will buy my own trike and make many good friends. I will have the COOLEST camera set-up of everyone (I'm gizmo-bedonnerd), and I will shoot LOTS of footage with my little 3CCD camera...

Other than that, I am SO glad to have made friends here...

In case you think this reaction is a bit "too serious," remember that I am writing without you being able to see my hand gestures, smiles, frowns and giggles in-between... Just a view...

That's my 1/4c worth!
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Postby Morph » Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:32 pm

You know the thing I love about microlighters is you never have to ask to go for a flip, the guys just generally offer. Me for instance am happy to take CSIpielot here for a flip, if he just popped into Morning Star one Saturday morning. :wink: 8)

Let me convice you that a nice little 3-axis is just as much fun, and better suited to the Cape due to our windy conditions. However some very dear friends of mine do fly trikes and they are great, so whatever you choose the point is to have some fun. I'll even get you up in a trike as well so you can compare.

Then we can have a beer or three 8)
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Postby GR8-DAD » Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:41 pm

Did you not know? :twisted:

FASTER = BETTER
HEAVIER = BETTER
MORE EXPENSIVE = BETTER

Jokes aside, I fly both and it is exactly the same. Same airlaw, same principles of flight, same radio license, same meteorology, same instruments, etc. :shock:

RV4 is 100% correct, in the early days of ML's it was a bit informal and less controlled. Therefore MPL was branded a bit way back then and it will unfortunately take a while for everyone to see light and move on :P
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Postby Morph » Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:09 pm

Yes but they still fly those scary trike type thingys. :shock:
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Attitude !!

Postby Chaz » Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:44 pm

Heya DF :!: :!: :!:

I agree with your statement. Reminds me of the military days where there were only two ranks that really mattered. General or Corporal. I look at the flying fraternity the sameway Microlight or Fighter pilot. Everything else in between showboys or skygods or at least think they are hence the snob or @sshole attitude :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: .

I vehemently defend microlights when i hear someone talking kaaak about them as we all do it for the real love of flying. :D :D :D

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Postby Arnulf » Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:52 pm

ForensicFlyer wrote:
Now - since Boeing pilots are just "glorified bus drivers" they will know that 747 pilots DO NOT look after their OWN maintenance.

No - that highly important job is reserved for a (politically correct) individual fished out of the common gene pool...

So - I ask you: Would you rather be in an aircraft you can maintain YOURSELF, and take responsibility for your OWN safety, or fly a "bus with wings" and rely on an unknown person to "guarantee" your safety?
Interesting. Maybe we should share some thoughts about this over a couple of beers. Don't many taxidrivers here in SA do their own maintenance on their own vehicles? #-0 (**) ##
Now - since Boeing pilots are just "glorified bus drivers"
Possible we could also share some thoughts about this over a couple of beers. (^^) (^^) However I can assure you, being "just a glorified bus driver" definately beats working for a living.

Regards,
glorified busdriver.
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Postby DieselFan » Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:37 pm

If the old unreliable (not unsafe) reputation of microlights is to blame, then surely foreigners would have similar experiences? What are the general attitudes of blik aerie pilots overseas?

I read an article recently that world wide South Africa was the most obsessed with STATUS and class - perhaps here's a factor... :?

Arnulf how did your flying buddies react when you told them you were flying trikes?

Perhaps the attitudes can be broken up into categories?

1. PPL by trade and don't have their own plane
2. PPL by trade and do have their own plane
3. Rich guy with a plane
Maybe more cats?

The guys I've had "issues" with fell into 2. and one guy into 3.
I'm also not entirely convinced it's from a SAFETY perspective?
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Postby Arnulf » Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:31 pm

DieselFan wrote:
Arnulf how did your flying buddies react when you told them you were flying trikes?
Do not talk too much about it. Those that I did tell about, generally thought it is great, however there are some that can't understand why I got involved in the "dark side" of aviation.

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Postby loansharkblv » Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:59 pm

From experience I can tell you that all of the pilots here in East London (and surrounding area) are treated as such – “pilots”

I think for the size of the community may have something to do with it but I have yet to come across one of the guys that fly PPL that “looks down” on someone flying trikes….

The MPL fraternity as such do not have their own “club” but each and every lawn chair driver is, was, and will always be welcome at the Border Aviation Club (BAC) – Also, if one of the locals steps out of line and is called aside and “spoken” to there is no such thing as “You don’t know what you are talking about because you fly MPL”

I think that due to this understanding between all the locals we must have one of the safest flying spaces around. Also, in terms of ATC, we are all the same and MPL’s get treated just the same as PPL’s (in some case’s even better – we get to route low level through the CTA).
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Postby ForensicFlyer » Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:08 pm

Arnulf,

Yes - we can ALWAYS hook up for acouple of doppies...

Now - don't get me wrong - the reason why that was in quotes is more because Airline pilots often refer to themselves (as do others) as "glorified bus-drivers..."

Personally, I'd rather have an office with your view than a castle with anyone else's.

I have been in and around some bigger cockpits some (look below), and found it most interesting, and the pilots friendly enough.

I have found that there is a strange couple of "levels" out there (in my VERY humble opinion), like so:

Microlighters - Very nice "flyboys" and party animals. (Normal people)

PPL's - Very firendly okes - if they know you already

CPL - Met only a few, but often see themselves as "real pilots"

Small Helo Pilots - Very unapproachable, since they are "REAL real pilots"

Larger Helo Pilots - Playboys, but friendly, yet very "inner-circle-ish"

Larger Jet Pilots - Very professional and "friendly." Quotes, because they seem a lot like marketing reps (so far). Smiling and "nice and warm" but I actually don't know a SINGLE one that ever bothered to "befriend" us normal people.

Police Helo Pilots - God's gift to law enforcement (very "one-sided")

Alo Pilots - They think they're in Vietnam and Alo's are Hueys!

Commercial Helo Pilots - Always trying to "sell" me training. Had some good offers though...

Fighter Pilots - VERY friendly and VERY thankful for their fortune, yet very much "one sided" as well.

Aerobatic Pilots - VERY friendly, always warm and willing to chat, and often pop up in places by surprise and almost NEVER tell what they REALLY do. Almost like they think people will think they're lying.

So, I've met quite a couple of different pilots, and I must admit I am generalizing more for amusement than reference, but (limited as it may be), these represent my general experiences most accurately.

But hey - perhaps i am just not a very likable guy?

Come to think of it - I have either VERY good friends or VERY BAD enemies!

Mmmmm. Doing anti-corruption work might not be a good thing after all?

That answer your question?
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Postby RV4ker (RIP) » Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:22 pm

Slummies is awesome flying community. Social interaction is a problem in Jhb. I miss the hangar flying BS side of flying and that what draws me to ML frat. Jhb is all about time & money. :x Avcom has gone a long way to bringing the fun back into PPL flying (for me personally), but it been a while since the last Avcom fly inn....

Live and let live. I think the more we interact the better it will become.

DF
I have had similar problems with PPL guys. I call them wannabeez. They more about what they got or how many hrs they flown or whose gat gabba they are than actually flying... (Name dropping pisses me off, 'cause those whose names they drop are the nicest guys you have ever met.) Quiet diplomacy works for me. They usually end up talking themselves into a corner. They say that if after 5 mins you can't spot the D..se in the conversation YOU'RE HIM......
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Postby loansharkblv » Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:15 pm

Hi DieselFan,

The more I thought about this the more I felt that I must be living in a bubble….. I have posted the same question on Avcom, let’s see what they come up with – I think this could be quite interesting.


http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13192
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