Gyro training in SA..........

[Gyronaut]

TBP... jy praat my taal!

I am all for standardisation and regular peer reviews of instructors.

As you know, there are currently no grades for Gyro instructors and this is wrong. The Manual of Procedure for SAGPA going forward has been submitted to RAASA and CAA and does make provision for grading of instructors and minimum hours to retain currency. I will forward it to you if you PM me your email address. The AGM next week wil ratify this MOP unless there are strong cases to make changes. Please apply your mind to it and give us your feedback, it will be most appreciated.

I am on record saying that we share the same airspace with our ATP/COMM/PPL colleagues so, if we choose to, there is no reason we aren't trained to the same level of proficiency. I am not suggesting that the weekend flyer around his own farm should have the confidence and ability of an ATP, but I do feel that instructors dishing out the licences and ratings (and I am one of them) should be more regulated or standards compliant and need to show their competency from time to time. Of course peer review is the only way to achieve this fairly. Hopefully this will be agreed and confirmed at the SAGPA AGM to which I am offering you an open invitation to attend.

[HEADS UP - if you are an instructor you may be requested to deliver a 15 minute briefing/lecture on a random subject - NAV/MET/Human Performance/Airlaw/Principles of flight/Engines and Airframes...]

I also think it is time we nominated one of the really highly experienced ATP's that love Gyro's to become our Designated Examiner to whom the instructors are accountable. I know some very competent high-time ATP/Comm pilots that are bristling with valuable information we could all gain huge benefit from if we approached them to assist. The purpose of the AGM is to bounce ideas like these around and to reach consensus to achieve the greatest benefit for the promotion of the sport of Gyroplane flying.

Lets never forget that this is recreational flying, it is supposed to be as much fun as possible, as professionally and safely as possible. Beware that if we over-regulate the fun element will be lost - and then the sport will die. SAGPA is our opportunity at self-regulation and we all have the opportunity and the responsibility towards our chosen sport to obtain what we believe is best for the promotion of our sport, while keeping it fun.

Those that stand on the sidelines and criticize should rather take up golf - or wind their necks in and go fly.

Look forward to meeting some of you at the AGM and thanks for the proxies received, you flatter me.

Len

[Thebushpilot]

I look forward to some feedback from the SAGPA AGM

[saraf]

Hi Bushpilot

In My opinion the AGM , and AP seminar went well, the Instructors meeting not so well. I do not feel that we reached any consensus on what should be done to up our training levels and get better pilots out there.

I also still feel there is still allot of "I have more hours than you" between a couple of our instructors, that result in "I know better than you situations".

Regards
Eben Mocke Jnr
RAF SA

[Learjet]

I also still feel there is still allot of "I have more hours than you" between a couple of our instructors, that result in "I know better than you situations"

It's funny, as a scuba diving instructor I used to hear this very same complaint being raised at diving seminars.
More concerning was the fact that there used to be instances of what we would call "cup-a-soup instructor"s - i.e someone just added water and they became instant instructors despite their low hours. Unfortunartely the very same thing happens with gyro instructor ratings being dished out to what I would consider are relatively low hour, inexperienced pilots. The reality however is that there is simply no substitute for experience...

[saraf]

The problem I saw is that opinions was asked , but if a opinion was given it was just brushed off...........so why then ask for an opinion???????????????????????? In my OPINION we got nowhere.,.................... And I am ashamed to say the least.

[Learjet]

for those of us that weren't there can you share what was being discussed? I gather from your first post that there are concerns over training standards which you felt weren't adequately addressed?

[saraf]

Yes.

[Gyronaut]

Whoa saraf!

Formal feedback on the meetings will be provided through SAGPA in due course.

In the instructors meeting, 2 contentious items were debated to test the instructors' feelings.

1. Potential introduction of Instructor gradings and the hours required to achieve the grade.
2. Minimum instruction hours required for Converting pilots.

We were probing possibilities of lowering the barrier to entry while raising the standards.

2 Subcommittees were convened to take this further and make recommendations to the SAGPA committee. 1 for Standards (training material, tests, etc) and 1 for Credits acceptable for flying hours - converting pilots and instructors gradings. You were nominated onto committee 2 so we all have work to do yet.

I implore you to think 'outside the box' for the general good of Gyro's in SA and not just for the benefit of one type of gyro with different characteristics, against the others. Please remember that this is the SA Gyro Pilots Association and not the SA ELA/XENON/RAF/MAGNI/SYCAMORE/KRIEK/UFO sub associations.

As for your "I have more hours than you" comment, of the 12 instructors present, 9 had more than 1 000 hours of instruction, which was considered enough to qualify as a grade A instructor so I doubt that the 9 tried to impose anything on the 3 with less hours. If they did, I certainly missed it since nothing was agreed or set in stone there and then... waarvan praat jy?

Len

[saraf]

Len

Converting pilots or new pilots? Where is our problem LEN???????????????

Out of the box? I have never though inside the box Len, Who was the person in the AP seminar whom brought up the post impact fire issue ?????? By increasing training , will this only benefit me and my gyro?????????????????????

Len I know what WE have done to UP OUR standard and it was and is very successful up to date. I have tried to share this with all but to no avail............

I will wait for the report.

One thing I would like to say is, DO you really think all of us there in the meeting spoke to each other and discussed the issues and how we are going to resolve it? I can only remember a selected few that gave some input........

Regards
Eben Mocke Jnr

[Gyronaut]

Len

Converting pilots or new pilots? Where is our problem LEN???????????????

I am not entirely sure I know where your problem is Ebie. ?
You did not put anything on the agenda for discussion prior to the meeting.

Len

[Learjet]

I'm not an instructor and I don't have a horse in this race, but my 2cents worth about "increasing training" is that the current prescribed standards that have to be adhered to are MINIMUM requirements and that there is no rule that says an instructer or school can't train beyond the minimum standard (in fact I would expect that to be the norm) - for instance as per the aptitude of each individual, or where students are training on a gyro type that may require more dual than others, or in area that has unique flying conditions such windy /mountain terrain in the Cape or at higher elevation airfields where density dltitude or other local weather phenomena (e.g. thunderstorms) or other circumstances may play a significant role in flying safety and thus require extra attention.

To play back an example from my diving instructor days, in the Cape we almost always required students to do extra qualifying dives in kelp because despite what the diving training standards required, we knew that once qualified, the students would often have to dive in the thick kelp beds unique to the Cape Coast. Similarly, the Natal instructors would spend extra dives familiarising their students with the stronger underwater currents and drift diving techniques. No "one size fit all" training standard specifying X number of qualifying dives / hours could adequately cover all the different diving conditions, varying types of scuba equipment and local area weather and water conditions (from warm tropical temperatures in Natal to icy cold 16'C or chillier water in the Cape requiring dry-suits or 7mm thick wetsuits!) It was ultimately the responsibility (and reputation) of the dive school to ensure that their students were qualified to dive competently and safely - and if that required an extra 5 or 10 or whatever number of dives more than the stipulated minumum than so be it. Why should gyro instruction be any different?

[saraf]

I do fully agree with Dave..

So how bad would it be to up the min dual training hours for new students????? This is what I am trying to say and said at the Meeting if you did not understand me???
I am fully aware that people differ and that there is people with experience out there and they should credited for that. With this I have no problem.

We at RAFSA changed our training min and are enjoying the success of it at the moment. With this I am not saying that other schools are not and will not. I just feel that the min for new students according to the law are to little.

Not to step on any toes here , if you look at the accident rate in SA and overseas at the moment...Training is the problem and the amount of training is the problem.

So Len, Ek het nie n probleem nie, en is ook nie n in the box ou nie. Ek sien waar ons probleem was, en ek het iets in plek gesit om dit reg te maak, en dit het gewerk. Hoekom kan ons die nie implimenteer in die wet en op die ou end is almal meer veilig?

Met die se ek nie stoot min ure op na 40h nie, glad nie , 25 na 30 klink vir my meer aanvaarbaar. Ons kan die min solo ure liewer afbring om die klient te help.

[Learjet]

I understand your point with regards to increasing training hours Ebie. On the face of it it seems logical - but how many minimum hours is enough?" 30...40...50...80...100... at what point is anyone "accident proof?" The reality & truth is that they never fully are.
A pilot's learning doesn't stop the day he / she gets their wings (in fact the opposite applies)
Surely you as an instructor use your knowledge, experience and skill to determine when a student is safe and competent to go solo or ready for final dual check.
You would not send a student solo if you were not 100% satisfied with their capabilities - even if they had completed the required number of minimum hours.
Similarly why should a competent students' progression be impeded by inflated minimum hours criteria when they have 100% demonstrated their ability & flying competency to you as an instructor?
We should change our mindset into doing what it takes to train a competent and safe pilot - not just meet the minimum criteria whatever it may be.
Training hours should be a student progression guideline - not a target!

[saraf]

Dave
I do agree again , in my books hours is irrelevant, if you do 50 10 or 100h it does not make a difference.. you still can or cannot fly the aircraft.

But it will not hurt anybody to up the hours a little.

Reason I am saying up the training hours is that there is accidents happening that can be avoided by more training. A pilot can prove to any instructor that he is able to fly any aircraft safely. But can he do so in all conditions? with a little more training that same pilot will be a better pilot. is this not what we want? And lets leave type of aircraft out of this as this is not the problem.

Dave I must be honest with you know, it does not matter what I say or suggest, I do not think it will change the perspective of all. I can try to make a difference but will it work, I do not know? I can only hope.


Regards
Eben jnr

[Gyronaut]

Currently the law requires a Minimum of 30 hours.
With previous flying experience, at the instructors discretion and written motivation, 10 hours reduction can be applied for. Personally I am quite happy with that.

What I do believe is that Ab-initio students generally (gross generalisation) require about the same number of hours as their age.

When all is said and done its up to 2 instructors to decide. (One of which should have 200+ hours instruction, grade B)

Works for me.