Blade Flap hypothesis

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Blade Flap hypothesis

Postby Gyronaut » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:49 am

I am proposing some debate around High Speed Blade flap. This hidden phenomenon can bite any Gyro pilot on take-off when least expected if not well understood and happens in an instant causing a violent roll-over.

I have a theory/hypothesis I would like to share for debate.

The theory applies to all Gyro's but is more prone to happen to shortly-coupled side-by-side machines.

We all know that a rotor must have a positive angle of attack into the apparent wind in order for the auto rotational forces to work. Without a positive angle of attack the rotor will lose RPM and will not fly positively. Once in the air, it is only possible to achieve this state by 'unloading' the rotor. (Negative G's - absolutely forbidden of course)

The moment-arm of these new-generation gyro's is very close to the Center of Gravity resulting in the nose popping up far quicker than in the tandems during take-off. Perhaps the wider, flattish-bottomed, fuselage's/cockpits generate their own lift and contribute to the cause by adding to total lift up to a point that the rotor takes over all the lift - thereafter it (the fuselage) is pure drag. In a typical take-off roll, the stick is full back and the rotor is loaded as the drag increases with forward speed. The rotor speeds up to the point that the nose lifts and we check forward on the stick to hold the nose down and to avoid getting airborne behind the power curve. As the nose drops again, the stick position may remain the same relative to the cockpit resulting in the angle of attack becoming too small. This is the same as taking off with the stick forward which we all know WILL result in blade-flap, regardless of rotor RPM. The disc happily skips along as the airspeed increases rapidly because there is no drag. The rotor is unloaded at this point. We then decide to take-off because we have adequate speed and come back on the stick. The rotor goes from an unloaded condition to fully loaded in an instant, the rotor speeds up rapidly. As a result of the high airspeed the advancing blade is exposed to a lot more airsflow than the retreating blade during this transition. The advancing blade 'flies' happily while the retreating blade 'stalls' and BAM, roll over to the left (in an anti-clockwise rotation) is the result.
Rotor unloading.jpg
Disclaimer: I am particularly poor at trying to draw things on a computer so please forgive the amateurish effort above. I also hasten to add that the gyro represented in the picture is a generic creation of my own and is NOT intended to represent any specific make or model of gyro. It is for illustration purposes only. (Before some agents/manufacturers throw a hissy-fit again)

I have often heard pilots say that the wind must have thrown them over on takeoff. The wing tip speed (lift generating portion) of a typical rotor is in the region of 650km/h or 400mph at typical flight speed. A cross-wind of at least this speed will be required to throw it over. Anything less will push the gyro off course downwind but will not flip it over - or am I wrong here?

If my hypothesis proves to be reasonable, then it follows that the safest method of takeoff is to ensure that the rotor is loaded throughout the takeoff roll until the gyro is airborne, whether it is behind the power-curve or not. In other words, you must feel rotor drag throughout the takeoff roll. Once the wheels are off the ground, blade-flap cannot happen in steady flight. The best method then would be to push the nose forward, gain adequate airspeed and only then begin the climb out.

Avoid climbing out steeply at the gyro's best angle of climb, stick to best rate of climb. The reason for this is, again, more pronounced in shortly-coupled side-by-side gyro's as opposed to tandems. If the engine fails while in a nose-high attitude, the airspeed will decay very rapidly. Pushing the nose forward to regain flying speed (45mph+) may take too long to avoid making contact with terra firma before the gyro is 'flying' again and it may not be possible to round-out, flare and land normally. In other words you may be forced to 'mush' onto the ground hard, resulting in all sorts of gyroscopic effects taking over and spoiling your day.

If you fly a side-by-side. Try this. Climb to a safe altitude (1500' agl or more). Do your HASSEL/HASELL checks of course. Establish a powered climb at 50mph and then chop the throttle on yourself. Delay pushing the nose hard forwad for a second or two - simulating a real life WTF? situation. Check airspeed and altitude. Now push the nose forward and look for 65mph airspeed. Once you get to 65 check your altitude again. The difference is how high above the ground you need to be to survive an engine out after takeoff (assuming you still have adequate runway ahead of you or a safe LZ in your path when it happens). You may be shocked at what you find. I was! :shock: I have recently checked this in both the M24 and the Xenon and both had me surprised at how long it takes and how much altitude is lost. BEWARE!

Fly safe and let me have your thoughts and arguments for and against my theory please.

Rgds

Len
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Re: Blade Flap hypothesis

Postby Vertical Tango » Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:58 pm

Len, thank you for starting this post !

I would like to see training for take-off in a short-coupled gyro change. I have changed my method differently to what I was taught. We must stop with the shortest take-off as possible. A gyro is not a helicopter and will always need a runway. Yes, my method takes a longer runway but I am still shorter than a 747.
1 - Prerotating high RPM hides the feel of "nursing" the rotor. 180 RPM is absolutely sufficient.
2 - Very gradual power instead of full blast with turbo on from stand still position. The advantage comes next, that the dreadful moment of seeing the nose wheel "jump up" becomes a non event, and then the subsequent mistake of trying to preempt it and forcing the nose wheel to the ground disappear. The wheel will come up slowly like in a tandem gyro, and no need to porpoise the angle of attack in search of the correct attitude.
3 - Once the attitude is correct and balanced, full power and the rest happens by itself as you have explained in your first post.
Yes, I will use more runway, but few meters extra will not hurt. It will still be considered a short take-off compared to most other flying machines.

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Re: Blade Flap hypothesis

Postby Gyronaut » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:43 pm

I couldn't agree more VT! Points 1, 2 & 3 are spot on.

Pre-rotating higher may save you a metre per 20 RPM, so what, big deal. Airspeed does the same PLUS saves your pre-rotator system a lot of unnecessary wear while having the added advantage of 'loading' the rotor evenly, allowing it to find its own happy place gradually. By now we all know that the rapidly changing angle of attack to the blade can cause a stall at any speed. Speed of the rotor is irrelevant (beyond a point), angle of attack is everything. A violently flapping blade will find a place where it stalls in the revolution. (As I see it anyway).

Keeping the rotor loaded (balancing the machine on the back wheels as long as possible) also results in a nice level lift off rather than experiencing the right wheel drop of the prop-torque transferring to the fuselage in an instant, which needs correcting. This happens in all Gyro's but is more pronounced in the side-by-side machines.
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Re: Blade Flap hypothesis

Postby t-bird » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:51 pm

Does rotor weight play any role in blade flap ?
Heavier rotors takes longer to spin up but inertia will keep them spinning longer .
Lighter rotors will get quicker up to speed, but the speed would decay quicker than heavier rotors.

Let me try an example
You take off from a runway with a crest in the middle. First part uphill and second part downhill.
Your speed will decay because it is an uphill runway.
Over the crest you would experience an increase in speed downhill.

Would a heavier rotor decay less than a lighter rotor. Smaller chance for blade flap.
Or would a lighter rotor speed up quicker than heavier rotor after crest . Thus less chance for blade flap.
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Re: Blade Flap hypothesis

Postby Gyronaut » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:16 pm

Heavier rotors will be more forgiving in my opinion. In other words, the time it takes for the rotor RPM to decay will be longer from the onset until it happens and yes, they will spin up slower too but once they reach their desired speed they will retain it longer (in a weightless environment - you may have more time but don't try it!). They will also resist the sudden change of angle of attack more and thus appear more 'docile'. Some may call this sluggish and dislike it if they are used to snappy, light rotors that react instantly during maneuvers. Nice, but they do require more careful handling.
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Re: Blade Flap hypothesis

Postby M I Claase » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:18 pm

Gyronaut, Vertical Tango
Dit waarna julle t.o.v. langer opstyg afstand praat is so in die RAF se handleiding ingeskryf. Sonder om die handleiding woord vir woord aan te haal kom dit basies op die volgende neer; engin +_ 1300rpm, skakel rotator in, sodra rotor rpm 100 is bring stok terug 10 grade, 125rpm 20grade en begin rol op 135rpm, gee stelselmatig meer krag (dit help om die engin wring krag meer geleidelik te kry), na 3000 engin rpm, wag vir rotor om 200rpm te haal, los rotator,gee volkrag, druk stok 3-4 grade vorentoe, (die neuswiel moet kontak met grond behou tot 50mpu, anders as om op hoofwiele te balanseer) terwyl jy wag vir 60 mpu haal die vorentoe druk geleidelik van stok af en sodra rotor en spoed begin balanseer begin jy vlieg. Hoe geleideliker die spoed en rotor rpm na vlieg oorgaan hoe gladder is die opstyg en hoe verder is jy weg van rotor flap. Jy gebruik verseker meer aanloopbaan maar as jy eers vlieg is jou noodlanding risiko tov spoed minder en rotor flap.(Dit is vir windlose kondisies) Hierdie opstyg benadering het veel minder verrassings as om so kort moontlik op te styg. Be-indruk jouself eers dan die res!
Ek dink die RAF se rotor is die swaarste, breedste(8,5 dm) maar nie die langste (30 vt) in die mark. Dit is waarskynlik die rede dat ons nie so maklik rotate tot 180 rpm voor ons rol nie. Klink my dit is voordelig!
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Re: Blade Flap hypothesis

Postby Gyronaut » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:50 pm

Jy Sien! Hulle verstaan! Nou is die vraag waar het die opleidingsstandaarde verswak sodat dit soms nie so geleer en so toegepas word nie? Hierdie is nie iets nuuts nie maar ons hoor en lees deesdae al hoe meer van 'blade flap' & 'behind the power curve' insidente. Hoekom? Ek dink ons moet begin by die opleiding, en dan kyk na hulpmiddels om dit veilieger te maak, voel ek.

Translated for Abezzi:
You See! They understand! Now the question remains where did the training standards fail so that it is often not taught or applied like that? This is nothing new but nowadays we hear and read about 'blade flap' & 'behind the power curve' incidents. Why? I think we should start with training and then look at aids to make it safer, I feel
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Re: Blade Flap hypothesis

Postby Vertical Tango » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:56 pm

Thanks for the partial translation.
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Re: Blade Flap hypothesis

Postby Gyronaut » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:33 pm

Ok, here goes, this is what M I said.

Gyronaut, Vertical Tango
What you are talking about with regard to longer take-off runs is written in the RAF manual. Without quoting the manual word for word it boils down to the following; engine +_ 1300rpm, engage prerotator, when rotor rpm 100 bring back the stick 10 degrees, 125rpm 20degrees and start roll at 135rpm, gradually add power (it helps to add the engine torque gradually), after 3000 engin rpm, wait for rotor to reach 200rpm, disengage prerotator, add full power, push stick 3-4 degrees forward, (the nosewheel must remain in contact with the ground until 50mph, rather than balancing on the main wheels) While you wait for 60mp reduce the forward pressure on the stick gently and as soon as the rotor speed balances you will begin to fly.the more gradual the rotor and speed translate to flight, the smoother the takeoff will be and the further away you are from rotor flap. You definitely use more runway but once you are flying your emergency landing risks reduce with respect to speed and rotor flap. flap. (This is in windless conditions) This take off technique has less surprises in store than trying to take off as soon as possible. First impress yourself then the rest!
I think the RAF rotor is the heaviest, Widest(8,5 dm) but not the longest (30 ft) on the market. Probably the reason we find it difficult to prerotate to 180 rpm before we roll. Sounds like a benefit to me!


PS I am not the official translator but I should thank Mrs Churms, my english teacher and Mr Campbell, my typing teacher ;-)
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Re: Blade Flap hypothesis

Postby t-bird » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:37 pm

Hi Gyronaut

How many Blade flap accidents in South Africa?
How does this compare to international stats ?

Accidents per type ?
I think that ELA’MT03’s will have more of these accidents due to the forward position of the stick after pre rotation.

Does it happen at a specific airport ?
Kitty hawk have a runway with a crest where the rotor speed decay on the uphill and gyro accelerate on the downhill

Any other reasons for flapping ?
Rotor brake that got stuck
Wheel bearing started to seize
Prerotator belts slipping

Where did the pilots train ?
Did they all train at a specific school ?
It would also be unfair to blame one school for all the accidents but they do 90 % of the training.
You need a complete list of Gyro pilots and where they did their training – Don’t know if it is available .

A proper plan could only be formulated after these facts are known.
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Re: Blade Flap hypothesis

Postby abezzi » Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:32 pm

Thanks Len!
Don't forget the dvd tomorrow!!!
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Re: Blade Flap hypothesis

Postby Vertical Tango » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:25 pm

Hi T-Bird,

I don't think that we should leave this thread deteriorate into Flight School or Gyro make statistics and who is responsible for what kind of training.
Regardless who has taught what in the past, I think that the level of our instructors is probably well above overseas one, particularly european ones.
We are constantly learning and the world of gyros is not really known to the level of fixed wings for instance. We are so lucky to be involved in this learning curve and have that hobby compared to the fixed wing schools that already have all the answers and basically pour-it down the student throat as accepted facts.
This thread is a school for everyone to share and debate. Some pilots might be nervous to fly gyros because some gray areas are not yet precise. I see it as a challenge and lets all work together to find some answers.
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Re: Blade Flap hypothesis

Postby OzGyro » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:26 pm

Hi All

Maybe we need to stop focussing on the perceived 101 outside facors and take a long hard look at the major 1 - OURSELVES. The male ego has killed/injured more pilots over the course of time than all other problems combined.

Everytime we get together male brevado has a habit of taking over, consider the following and just think how many times youv'e heard some of these.

I have flown at 100mph only to hear another guy say Iv'e flown at 110mph
I can take off in 100 metres, then to hear the other guy say he can do it in 70
My pre rotator can spin up to 180 rpm only to hear the other guy can get 250
etc etc ($$) ($$)

I have trained under both the Australian and South African systems and I can say that the South Africa system that I experienced as far a quality of training is A1.
There is only one significant difference in the two systems for me, and it impacts in a big way in realation to this thread - ROTOR MANAGEMENT

Back home in OZ most of us fly home built machines that have some form of very basic pre rotator system, most of these basic systems can only spin the blades up to a max of 100RPM, from this point onwards we have to learn the art of rotor/ground speed management. If you train under the OZ system and learnt to fly on one of the new style factory built machines with high performance pre rotator you are then limited to flying only that style of aircraft. Those of us who learn to fly in the most basic of machines are permitted to operate both style of machine due to the extra training we have when it comes to understanding and flying the rotor.

If I had to look at statistics I would say that I have seen a geater number of blade flap/behind the power curve accidents/incidents here in SA compared back to home, whilst quite a few of the OZ accidents have been attributed to design issues and pilot inexperience in what may be considered unstable machines due to thrustline design etc, an issue that is currently being taken very seriously with a lot of changes and testing taking place.

I guess in short guys/girls is what I am trying to say is be the best pilot you can be for yourself, you have nothing to prove to anyone else other than being a great airman/woman and dont get caught up in all the HYPE

So you fly 10 mile an hour slower, you take and extra 50 meters to take off and maybe it took you an extra 5-10 hours to gain your GPL than your best mate, in the end what does it really matter???

Airmanship and Attitude will save more lives than any other solution we can put in place, so next time you fly think to yourself, todays the day I become part of the solution and not contrbute to the problem.

Safe Flying to all
Cheers
Darren

P.S Sorry for the hijack Len.
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Re: Blade Flap hypothesis

Postby Gyronaut » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:42 pm

Not a hijack at all Darren, I agree. =D*
If we prevent one accident/incident by talking about it well done. If we eliminate them - BONUS!

I have been told by more than one gyro-pilot that he was taking off normally only to be 'thrown' onto his side by what must have been a freak gust of wind. Blade-flap was an unknown phenomenon to them. One of them has even gone as far as saying that he forgot his rotor brake off overnight with his gyro outside, a freak gust spun his rotor up then blew his gyro over while it was standing on the ground. I guess the same freak gust started his motor resulting in the prop strike during the roll-over. :lol: :lol:

Apportioning blame or finding the culprits will achieve short term wins, next month/year the same will happen to other people if they are ill-informed. If we encourage fellow pilots and instructors to talk about these things we will go a long way to preventing them re-occuring. This results in us developing our skills further. As OzGyro says, what is needed is Knowledge, Attitude & Skill.
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Re: Blade Flap hypothesis

Postby t-bird » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:19 pm

Hi Vertical Tango

We can ignore the schools as a reason.

But you need to find a cause based on accident statistics to be able to correct something with training. If you don’t you are just hoping that you do the right thing.

I agree with Ozzy gyro about rotor management.

I flew a MT 03 in December in Tauranga New Zealand.
We only prerotated to 100 Rpm with a Rotax 912 ULS. It takes a lot more skill to nurse your rotor up to speed and fly .

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