Flying from the backseat

[Low Level]

Question: I've heard - not pub talk - that one could do a conversion to fly from the back seat, and don't neccesarily need an instructor's rating. Any truth in that ?

Reason is my wife loves the flying, but gets airsick within 10 miles, which really puts a damper on our flying. Backseats of cars, also a no-no, so I guess the front seat of the gyro will also work for her.

She has tried all the pilletjies and boererate, but to no avail.

[mak]

Suggest you get a Xenon, M24 or RAF, no back seats there

[t-bird]

The Ela have an option of instruments at the back.

[Low Level]

Dunno if there are legal implications - that's how all tandem GPL instructors fly, and trikes for that matter.

[weedy]

Why do you need instruments? they are a nice to have and and some must be fitted to satisfy CAA, but not really needed to be able to fly.

[saraf]

Reason I am asking.

Some European countries it is illegal to train in some tandem gyros as they are not fully duel control, as they have no instruments in the back for the instructor.

[Gyronaut]

I don't have the exact law available now but I do know this... While it does not specifically state which seat should be flown from, our regulations state very clearly that the pilot in command must have FULL control over the aircraft. In my mind that implies full dual controls: access to brakes, rudders, comms, instruments required for flight etc.

I fitted a flydat to the roof at the back of my Sycamore giving me airspeed, alt, engine outputs etc so that I wouldnt have to strain to look over the pax's shoulder. It has full dual controls, PTT etc at the back ... aside from access to the mags I have full control from the back so I do believe that I could legally fly it from the back seat.

Would I be wrong? Don't think so but look forward to hearing an informed opinion?

Len

[FO Gyro]

Apparently some of the Germans that fly the MT-03 have flown solo from the back of this gyro in Germany, and the gyro flies much faster than if the pilot is in the front seat. Interesting. I guess it's like a fixed wing that flies faster if it has an aft C of G.

[old no 7]

Apparently some of the Germans that fly the MT-03 have flown solo from the back of this gyro in Germany, and the gyro flies much faster than if the pilot is in the front seat. Interesting. I guess it's like a fixed wing that flies faster if it has an aft C of G.

That's quite interesting Glenn,
The POH on the Oh Sport says flight without someone in front seat "strictly forbidden"

[Gyronaut]

I believe flying solo from the back seat is 'verboten' in all tandem seat configured gyro's. Probably because the aft CofG might not provide adequate moment to maintain airspeed in the event of engine failure.

Side by side should/may have a minimum seat weight for the same reason. I know a Robinson R22 (Beta) requires ballast if the pilot weight is less than 75kg for the same reason.

(just a little aside, off topic - Rand ATC used to find this humorous for some reason and delighted in teasing me about it asking that I confirm that I had my ballast loaded. Once I discovered that they were keen to act as ballast for the ride and took some of them along I got preferential treatment and made some good friends in the process
Often ATC are keen flyers that have not had the opportunity/ can't afford the training/ medical constraints - offer them a ride and they jump at it if the workload/shifts allow. It's also nice to put faces to the voices - for them also)

Fly safe

Len

[Low Level]

I believe flying solo from the back seat is 'verboten' in all tandem seat configured gyro's. Probably because the aft CofG might not provide adequate moment to maintain airspeed in the event of engine failure.

Two things happened while I was training.

First one: My gyro had to go to Rhino, from Brakpan for a service. Me and Josua - instructor - flew it to Rhino, but going back Josua flew alone. He weighs just short of 60 kg. He told me he had a terrible trip - flying at 55-60 mph - at 4 000 rpm. As soon as he increased power, the nose pitched up so much that he couldn't fly, and even with all the trim available, he couldn't get it down.

He then told me, when he did railway line inspections in a Sycamore on contract, and sometimes flew alone, he had a sandbag which he threw in the nose of the gyro to be able to fly at full power.

Second story: During training I had to replace my batteries - on the Sycamore it is in the nose of the gyro. The bracket holding down the batteries is a lead weight of - guessing here - about three kg. In my wisdom, as I am heavier than the std weight do to mass and balance, I'm 100kg opposed to the 85 kg in the front seat to do m&b in the Sycamore, I took it out. Bad idea, as the nose pitched up and I had to use a lot more trim just to fly straight and level. After about three hours I put it back, and the Sycamore, she was happy again.

My guess - if you have a death wish, you nust try and fly alone from the backseat.

[Gyronaut]

My guess - if you have a death wish, you must try and fly alone from the backseat.

I couldn't agree more! Stay with the POH and stay safe.

Len

[FO Gyro]

Apparently some of the Germans that fly the MT-03 have flown solo from the back of this gyro in Germany, and the gyro flies much faster than if the pilot is in the front seat. Interesting. I guess it's like a fixed wing that flies faster if it has an aft C of G.

When I said "some of the Germans", I am referring to the manufacturer of the MT-03 who knows the limitations of his gyro. This is definitely not in accordance with the POH, and is just out of interest only.

I would also not like to fly my machine from the back seat with a passenger in the front, ignoring the law here just for a second, as I would prefer an instructor first to check me out from the back seat. A gyro feels very different sitting in the back seat.

[Gyronaut]

Actually, (This is a little secret just between us because we instructors want you to think that we are skygods), I find it very easy to fly from the back seat. I have thought that this is possibly because you have more attitude reference ahead of yourself. Doing demonstrations of hovers, steep turns etc from both the front and the back constantly, I can honestly say that I find it very easy from the back. (of course we don't tell students this so that they go away thinking WOW-he CAN fly that one) Even landing is a non-event. (you should be looking way down the runway anyway and I think having a passenger and cockpit in front helps in judging the attitude while looking outside.

I agree ENTIRELY with FO though, if you do have FULL dual control from the rear and haven't done it, go for a check ride with an instructor first before attempting it.

Remember little things that could spoil your day. e.g. Your passenger might have to pull in the prerotator if the machine is rigged that way, may not let go/may not get adequate RPM and tempt you etc. He/She might have to kill the mags if a child comes running up to the machine, switch fuel pumps on/off during flight, change frequency on the radio... Think the entire flight and all the possibilities through before attempting it - every time!

It is a fact that passengers find it far more exhilarating from the front, but then again, I yet have to find one that didn't find it thrilling enough from the back anyway to leave them with that silly gaga-grin for ages afterwards!

Fly safe!

[Low Level]

Interesting replies - but still my question lingers.

Is it just a conversion, or do one need an instructors rating to fly from the back seat with a non GPL in the front seat ?