RAF gyrocopter accidents

[MICHIEL]

Typed 'RAF gyrocopter accidents' into Google search and it comes up with 19200 results....... certainly disturbing and although impossible to read all of them it goes a long way to explain why RAF Canada stopped production.Maybe RAF South Africa will address some of the inherent safety issues once they start local prodution after all the current Canadian kits are sold.

[weedy]

There is probally a 1000 posts per accident, can't use that result, means zip.

[saraf]

Michiel

Please post facts and proven ones before you speak out so bluntly about a product you know nothing about not have ever flown my friend. It can bring you in waters that you would not like to be in.

SARAF

[Condor]

If we can not add positive and factually correct info on the forum we will have to intervene as moderators.............

Will keep an eye on this thread.

[saraf]

Hi

I would appreciate this, as there are people out there that know NOTHING about a product and make comments and assumptions and post unproven info like they do. This hurts businesess and I am warning those that I WILL take this further.

Thanks Condor.

P.S - it is just sad that the damage has already been done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SARAF

[gertcoetzee]

Oh boy, here we go again.

Searching Google for "Saraf accidents" yields 9500 results, so I will be very careful before taking on this member of the forum.

Searching for "Michiel accidents" - 27,800 so I would guess being a Michiel is inherently more unstable than either a Saraf or a RAF.

[MICHIEL]

Condor, the statistics that I quoted are facts.....please go ahead and check for yourself.
My speculation round the closure of the Canadian factory and safety issues surrounding RAF is my own opinion to which I am certainly entitled to.......
May I add that my opinions are based on those of amongs others the Popular Rotorcraft association in America where by far the most gyros in the world fly.
They state categorically: 'If your gyroplane does not have a horizontal stabilizer,DO NOT FLY IT'.The uninformed opinion of all gyro manufacturers in America except one??? [according to Popular rotorcraft association]
Many more examples can be quoted should you so require.
What is the sense of having a forum like this if only one side [in this case a salesman\manufacturer] is heard and anybody that differs from him is threatened by moderators or 'land me in waters I would not like to be in'. Is he trying to tell me I am amongst sharks??

[MICHIEL]

Saraf, maybe you will be surprised how much I really know about RAF.For instance, did you know Daniel Haseloh [one of the founding members of the company] was found guilty in a civil aviation tribunal in Canada that was instituted by the minister of transport after he was involved in a accident with a RAF.The tribunal also called him a blatant liar by refuting his evidence pertaining to the accident.Did you really know that? [BY THE WAY,IT IS A FACT, check on google to verify]

[saraf]

Hi Michiel

I am not going to go into any mud slinging with you. I do not have the time to waste.... I do know everything about Daniel and RAF Canada , I have sat with all of them in the factory for months, But again get your facts right my friend about Daniel and the RAF before you make assumptions and post stuff you read on the Internet. I doubt it that you know how the PRA started and WHO the people was that helped to get them off the ground. Unfortunately the PRA is dieing a slow death as there numbers is less than half what it was. WHY??? because of people that read stuff on the internet and people that think they know all there is to be known of gyro planes. All manufactures has allot to learn. It is a shame that all these people that know it all have not come out with the perfect gyro. All we Manufacturers see is TALK and criticism...

You know what Michiel, I will put MY facts where my mouth is.. Come to Upington I will arrange everything for you. AND i WILL TAKE YOU IN THE RAF IN STOCK FORM WITH NO HORIZONTAL STABILIZER AND THEN WE WILL SEE WHAT YOUR COMMENTS ARE!!!!!! CAN i ARRANGE THE AIR TICKET SO LONG?????????

BY THE WAY HAVE YOU FLOWN IN A RAF 2000 SA??????? WHAT IS YOUR FLYING EXPERIANCE IN GYRO PLANES????????

[saraf]

HI MICHIEL

BY THE WAY ARE YOU NOT THE GUY THAT PHONED DON LAFLEUR AND PETER AND TRIED TO TEACH THEM HOW TO DESIGN THE RAF? AND THEN THEY CHASED YOU AWAY DUE TO YOUR RUDENESS WITH THERE STAFF????

MAYBE I MUST PUT SOME PHOTO'S ON THE NET OF YOUR RAF AND THE WAY IT WAS BUILT, AND ALL THE STRUCTURAL CHANGES THAT WAS MADE???? SO THAT ALL CAN SEE FROM WHOM THESE COMMENTS ARE COMING FORM.....

I DO RECALL MY DAD HAVING TO REPLACE AND ORDER NEW PARTS FOR THE RAF KIT THAT YOU WERE TRYING TO BUILD.

[Tumbleweed]

Michiel,

You're re-flogging a dead horse and resurrecting a topic which you have previously commented on.

I think to add credibility to your statement you should state your experience, flying wise as well as the RAF.

I can't see anyone so naive as to invest a lot into something in which they would not have satisfied all their concerns.

Comments of this unstable and that igniting without having experienced it just unsettles the ignorant and does not add credibility to your statement.

Take the agent up on his offer and share with us your experience

[MICHIEL]

Saraf, I agree fully with you,no mudslinging,and if you regard any of my posts as mudslinging I sincerely apologise.
I merely want to remind fellow pilots that there is an alternative view to that of RAF.If RAF is the only gyro manufacturer in the world that swims upstream,they must surely be able to prove everybody else wrong by backing their stance with relevant safety stats..Hence my referance to RAF accidents.Now please correct me ragarding the RAf accident involving Daniel Haselow,as I quoted from actual ministry documents.Also can you inform us what the actual current membership of the PRA is?.
Thanks for your offer of flying in a RAF in Upington, but no thank you;fit a proper stab and I will gladly accept!!.
My flying experience dates back to the eighties when I started flying trikes and then on to gyros app 5 years ago.Started training with Mirek and Josua on a magni and later on when I got my own Ela I trained with Roelf Palm and completed my training with Johan von Ludwig.All great and very competent gyro instructors.Also had a lot of interaction at that stage with Gary Butlion.Learned a lot from each of them in their own ways.
Before I again get accused of mudslinging I will refrain from quoting any of the mentioned instructors opinion regarding RAF.Any future RAF student pilot is free to try and get instruction from any of them.
Sold the Ela to Tbird [after some serius structural mods].My mods have since been copied by many other owners,and tbird is still happy with it today.Bought a Jabi 430 last year because Softness hated the open cockpit.
Yes,I did build a RAF about 5 years ago,one of the first kits in the country.It was viewed and inspected by many aviators,including CAA,and not a single person ever critisized anything,but I got many compliments regarding my workmanship.Sold the plane just before completion because of serious breach of promises by RAF sa [then Dave Armstrong].For those interested in the facts regarding that issue I will start another thread if so requested.
And no Eben, i did not at any stage tried to teach RAF in Canada how to design a RAF.I did however have serious issues with them regarding incompetence of staff,relating to late shipments and a incomplete kit.
Tumbleweed, yes,I was VERY naive 5 years ago but have learned a lot at a great cost in the meantime......and still learning...Today I can look back and laugh about many wrong decisions,but when it comes to safety it is no laughing matter.

[old no 7]

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

[Wagtail]

How about the following. Instead of buying a plane ticket for one guy, can't we convince you to bring one of the latest RAF 2000 models up to our area and spend a few days with us. We will supply hanger, airfield, some braaivleis and biltong, everything U need ( flying related..... ). I am sure there will be lots of guys who would want to come and see the latest RAF up close and then you can take quite a few of us for a circuit or two. I for one would love to see and feel the latest RAF 2000. Please don't fight again, but we do see "not so good" examples from time to time and that does reflect "not so good"..
I just think it will be fair for everybody who wants to throw comments around to come and see and fly and then they can be allowed to make up their own mind.

[saraf]

Hi Michiel

To you I can only laugh.........

I will find out the member status of the PRA, from Duanne Hunn ( board member) as well as from Jeff Downey ( Chariman of the EAA Rotorcraft and gyroplane section) both very good friends of mine.

Hi Johan,

I will gladly take you up on your offer.

Regards

Saraf