Gyro ongelukke

[hennie1]

Hi

Hoekom is daar so baie gyro ongelukke as hul dan so veilig is?????

Hennie

[Low Level]

Dieselfde rede hoekom daar so baie motorongelukke, ens is. Die mens bestuur die masjien volgens die masjien se vermoeë, en nie volgens die mens se vermoeë nie.

[Learjet]

Hoekom is daar so baie gyro ongelukke as hul dan so veilig is?????

Hi Hennie.
I wasn't aware that there are disproportionately more gyro accidents than any other type of aircraft? In fact looking at the CAA accident reports posted for the last 10 years, the statistics seem to suggest the contrary, with remarkably few actual gyro flying incidents (discounting the non-flying / on-the-ground rotor strikes and taxiing accidents) with only 2 fatal incidents ever that I'm aware of. Put this into the perspective of the many thousands of gyro hours flown every year in SA and I'm at a bit of a loss as to how you draw your conclusion about there being "so baie gyro ongelukke" ? I can't think of any other type of aircraft category that comes close to having only had 2 fatal accidents in the 76 years of gyro flying history in South Africa (the first gyro flight in SA was in 1932) Personally I think thats pretty darn impressive and long may it stay like that!

[Gyronaut]

Hear Hear Learjet
(and one of the 2 fatal accidents you refer to might well still result in a culpable homicide case)

[FO Gyro]

I know of 4 fatalities in SA. The following causes of what I understood or was told at the time: (I accept no responsibility for the accuracy of the probable causes. Please correct me if any inaccuracies here):
1) RAF 2000 where Travis du Toit was killed when from what I understand he went past Vne and got severe POI. The tail was chopped off and the gyro fell to -the ground and it burnt out completely. This occurred some time ago, +-8-10 yrs ago.
2) Magni fatality at the coast, about 5-10 yrs ago. It was rumoured that non standard nuts where fitted to the control system, and a castle nut worked its way off (didn't have a split pin through it). The pilot lost control of the gyro in flight and was killed.
3) The very unfortunate case of the rotor head separating from the Sycamore gyro shortly after take off at Rhino Park. I understand there is a big legal case on the go with who was to blame for this fatality.
4) The recent fatality of a Magni Gyro at Mabilingwe where 2 people were killed. Someone heard a loud bang shortly after take off suggesting an engine problem, or maybe something going through the prop maybe?

I have always said gyro's are the safest form of flying in a single engine, but I must agree, there have been quite a few incidents over the last few years, mainly caused by handling errors. Gyro's are not tricky to fly, but particularly on take-off, if you don't apply the correct technique, it will bite you hard!

The thing I have realised recently is that gyro's and helicopters share the same tendency to burn out if they land on their side. In a fixed wing, the wings store the fuel away from the hot exhaust manifolds where a spark can generate. Gyro's and helicopters have their fuel tanks in very close proximity to the engine. Should they tip over through a bad landing, there is a high likelyhood of them catching fire and burning out. I know of 2 gyro's that landing badly, tipped over, and burnt out. The recent R44 helicopter prang at Rand highlighted this. Terrible way to die...

[MAGNIficent]

2) Magni fatality at the coast, about 5-10 yrs ago. It was rumoured that non standard nuts where fitted to the control system, and a castle nut worked its way off (didn't have a split pin through it). The pilot lost control of the gyro in flight and was killed.

FO Gyro,
I gathered that it was a SYCAMORE that had the fatal accident on the CROOKS ESTATES, not a Magni

[Low Level]

Good post Glenn .

FO Gyro,
I gathered that it was a SYCAMORE that had the fatal accident on the CROOKS ESTATES, not a Magni

My info is on hearsay - but I also had it as a Sycamore. From what I've heard, the gyro was involved in an incident, prior the accident, and the pilot was advised not to fly before the rotor was x-rayed. This was ignored with fatal consequences.

As I say hearsay , but from a trusted source.

[t-bird]

Hi Guys

Don’t bullshit yourselves, flying is dangerous. Treat it with respect and remember that one mistake can kill you.

Pliots that we have lost during the past two years were good pilots.

Basie Wessels , was a good friend.
I bought my first plane from him had my first flip in a Gyro with him.
We would have done a trip with the Gyros from Mabalingwe to Hoedspruit.

I still believe that a Gyro is the safest way of flying. It will bite you if you land skew or if you fly behind the drag curve. I have another friend who has a comm license with thousand of hours on Barons and he had an accident with his Gyro after 1500 hours.

Basie and I in a Thunderbird at Mabalingwe


My first flight in a Gyro with Basie

[Morph]

It's very difficult to isolate a particular type of aircraft. They are all dangerous

The fuel issue is a big one to me. You are literally sitting on the fuel tank close to the engine and a minor incident like a landing going a little wrong ends up in a fireball. Mossel Bay recently where the plastic type seatbelt clips had melted due to the fire and the pax could not get out. She was very badly burned.

A few years ago there was an incident at Conteman's kloof at the WCMC competition. The gyro was overloaded and struggled to take off. it crashed in a field and erupted into flames. Fortunately the Pilot and PAX excaped, albeit with injuries to the PAX.

however there are other aircraft 3-axis and trike's who also have tanks behind or inside the cockpit, such as Jora, Cheetah, Jabiru, but for some reason the tanks do do rupture in a accident, even a severe one.

What I would like to see is total incidents (not only deaths), versus number of aircraft versus hours flown, and compare the three, gyro, trike and 3-axis. That would give a better statistic.

[Learjet]

FO Gyro, thanks for correcting my stats

[emil]

Hoekom is daar so baie gyro ongelukke as hul dan so veilig is?????

Hi Hennie.
I wasn't aware that there are disproportionately more gyro accidents than any other type of aircraft? In fact looking at the CAA accident reports posted for the last 10 years, the statistics seem to suggest the contrary, with remarkably few actual gyro flying incidents (discounting the non-flying / on-the-ground rotor strikes and taxiing accidents) with only 2 fatal incidents ever that I'm aware of. Put this into the perspective of the many thousands of gyro hours flown every year in SA and I'm at a bit of a loss as to how you draw your conclusion about there being "so baie gyro ongelukke" ? I can't think of any other type of aircraft category that comes close to having only had 2 fatal accidents in the 76 years of gyro flying history in S
th Africa (the first gyro flight in SA was in 1932) Personally I think thats pretty darn impressive and long may it stay like that!

gyros in SA only boomed the past 2 to 3 years before that there were almost no gyros..
i will not get into a Gyro or a Trike ever in my life again ...
But hey ..thats just me

[Learjet]

Hi Emil,

Of course that is your perogative, but as a flying instructor, perhaps you'd be kind enough to share the benefit of your knowledge and reasons for this.
No doubt you have received similar points of view from people about flying in general or from your prospective students concerned about "how safe is flying..." etc. I would imagine that your responses are measured and seek to put the associated risks into perspective - much the same as what we are trying to do on this thread in response to Hennie's question. I think we could all benefit from your experience and insight.

[FO Gyro]

I would say the boom started in gyro's started about 10 years, mainly thanks to the Rotax 914 that came out in the Magni Gyro. Up until that point, there wasn't a decent engine powerful enough to power a 2 seater gyro. The best best engine I experienced up to that point was an Arrow engine (2 stroke), that was very thirsty to operate. That was 120hp. Gyro's need quite a bit of power to counteract the massive drag from the rotor.

Emil, I you have some time, give my website a look. I wrote an article about the safety of gyro's some time ago: http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/gpol ... e%201a.htm

From my experience of aviation, which is fairly vast, I maintain that gyro's are the safest form of flying because of their forgiving flight envelope. No other flying machine in the world cannot stall, and at the same time, not run out of rotor RPM like helicopters can!

The one thing that does however irritate me is when my own flying colleagues at SAA say I'm mad to fly gyro's. From the questions that they ask me, they haven't the foggiest idea how gyro's fly, and yet they possess the strongest opinions on the safety of gyro's. It's only when they have been up in one that they change their tune!

Emil, maybe you can share your reasons for never wanting to step into a gyro or micolight.

[emil]

Hi Emil,

Of course that is your perogative, but as a flying instructor, perhaps you'd be kind enough to share the benefit of your knowledge and reasons for this.
No doubt you have received similar points of view from people about flying in general or from your prospective students concerned about "how safe is flying..." etc. I would imagine that your responses are measured and seek to put the associated risks into perspective - much the same as what we are trying to do on this thread in response to Hennie's question. I think we could all benefit from your experience and insight.

Hi guys

Well let me start by saying I have said I will never fly a trike again
I have flown load and loads and loads of different types of fixed wing planes
And also helicopter
The thing that scars me about trikes is that you have one wing only..and a spreader cable pulling that wing into position…that goes you go.

As for gyro the same sort of principle applies..yes the flying envelope is safe..BUT is the machine actually safe..
I have seen 3 gyro accidents…in one the guys dies the one at rhino last year
Then I also saw one where the gyro flipped over on landing…now if there was a pax in that gyre he would have died as the rotor head ended up right on top of the back seat.

So that is my other concern
Then lastly ..like I say I have flown loads of different type of aircraft from ,micro ‘s to aeros to helis..

And a gyro is the only one that I cold never get the “feel for” I have flown about 5 hours with braam and I told him It scares me as I can not feel what the thing is doing
Keep in mind I solo in the heli in 8.5 hours…purely because u could feel the machine….as fore the Gyro..i could not..i did fly in a MT Magni and the Xenon…

Like i say this is just me..i just don’t trust them ,,and I feel if you do come down ..there is not much protection around you ..

[FO Gyro]

The one thing I am will to conceded is that gyro's are not certified, and haven't been through the exhaustive testing that certified aircraft have been through (even though the MT-03 has Section S (or T?) in Europe, I'm not sure how this would compare to the requirements for a certified aircraft. Does anyone know?

But even though your average blik aero is certified (Piper, Cessna, Beech etc), that's no guarantee. I remember years ago, I flew a Seneca 11 back from Windhoek. The very next day, two businessmen were flying the same aerie I had flown the previous day. I don't know if they were doing aerobatics with it or not, but the wing snapped in half inboard of one of the engines, and they were killed on impact over Westonaria. CC's display at Groblersdal a couple of weeks ago made me a bit nervous in the Seneca after the Westonaria accident.

My only concern with all NTCA aircraft is how do you know, years down the line after buying a machine, that some crack or weakness develops, that nobody knows about, and it takes the life of an aviator? That's why often they say that the safety we have today in aircraft has been written by the blood of those that had to die so that improvements could be made to problems that only then became evident.