RAF 2000

[Bennie Vorster]

Where is the RAF been manufactured and factory build.

[Rotor-Blade]

As far as I am aware the RAF 2000 GTX is designed and produced in Canada. The agent for Africa i think is a chap in Botswana, but the technical support is Eben Mocke and his son in Upington. The RAF is sold in Kit form.

[mak]

I believe the guys from Upington have taken over the agency from the Canadians and are now the sole distributers

[Spindoctor]

So, I went looking for a Modified RAF to train on but it seems there are only unmodified ones to be used for training in the Western Cape?

Here is a response to a query I made, given by someone who is a gyro flight instructor.

Hi

I am (name withheld), the instructor on the RAF. It is the unmodified RAF but I assure you it is completely safe. It flies more like a 'gyrocpter' (i.e. a bit more sensitive on the stick) than the Magni's and the Ela's which fly more like a 'gyroplane'.

I would like to encourage you to come and fly a demo in the RAF and you decide for yourself. The rates on the RAF is about 30% cheaper than the Magni's or Ela's and is completely insured.

My cell number is

Kind regards

(Name withheld)

So I responded.

Hi (instructor name withheld)

Thanks for your response. I'd love to start training but it would seem
that the Pitch Stability issue on the RAF is a concern. Do you agree
with this guideline? or am I making a mountain out of a molehill? If a
PRA chapter association is telling me not to fly without a horizontal
stabilizer am I taking a chance? Look forwards to your feedback. I get
my info from the below link. and where do you do the demo from.

http://www.prachapter34.com/gyro_safety.htm

Regards

Interestingly enough, I have not had a reply from this instructor. Perhaps other members of the gyro community could enlighten me as to whether it's ok to train in an unmodified RAF despite http://www.prachapter34.com/gyro_safety.htm

[saraf]

Hi Spindoctor

The RAF is just as save to train in as all the other gyro's or planes on the market. 35 Students have been trained to date and all of them fly safely.

Most gyros in general today is just a copy of someone else's aircraft. The RAF was designed as a powered aircraft and did not follow the line of all the copies of the Bensen. That is why it has a patented mast design, a patented C OF G, and a patented rotor stabilator. This is why RAF also has industrial designs on the shape of the cabin. Because RAF is not a copy of the basic gyros of the 1950's they are free with new technology to change the RAF for the better and that is why almost every other gyro tries to sell the idea that all must be the same or they are dangerous. This is what happens when you copy, then you don't have a deep insight as to how and why things work the way they do. And if you don't know humans become fearful of change and anything different than what we are use to or have is no good.

Demo flights are done in Upington at the airport. Where are you situated?

Regards

SARAF

[Gyronaut]

My 2 cents worth would be that there is no reason not to err on the side of safety and fit a horizontal stabilizer. Why not? Aerodynamically it makes sense that a large HS will dampen pitch and hence reduce or illiminate the risk of Power Push Over and Pilot Induced Oscillation, both of which can spoil your day.

Are there any 'cons' to Horizontal Stabilisers? None that I can think of except a bit of weight perhaps, so why not?

I'd be interested to hear Saraf's view now that they own the rights. It was previously rumoured that RAF would not fit Horisontal Stabilisers for fear of lawsuites from deceased estates. I hope this is just a rumour and that the SA company is indemnified against that happening?

I am fully suportive of the RAF becoming a 'Proudly South African' product and personally really like the machine but for the absence of a large Horisontal Stabiliser.

[MICHIEL]

I HAVE YET TO READ ANY NEGATIVE FEEDBACK FROM ANY RAF OWNER WHO HAVE FITTED A PROPER STABILIZER.ALL OF THEM RAVED ABOUT THE VAST IMPROVEMENT THAT RESULTED.THE CONCENSUS IN THE AMERICAN GYRO FRATERNATY IS THAT RAF WOULD MAKE THEMSELVES LIABLE TO MASSIVE CLAIMS IF THEY START FITTING HORIZONTAL STABILIZERS BECAUSE IT WOULD IMPLICATE THAT ALL PREVIOUS MODELS WERE INHERENTLY UNSAFE.A ISSUE THAT PROBAPLY LED TO THE CLOSURE OF THE FACTORY IN CANADA.THE POOR SAFETY RECORD IS BOURNE OUT BY THE STATS ON THE PRCHAPTER WEBPAGE.JUST FOR THE RECORD, THE FIRST GYRO FATALITY IN S.A. WAS IN A RAF. IN SOUTH AFRICA THE SITUATION IS SO BAD THAT NO GYRO INSTRUCTOR,APART FROM THE RAF AGENTS, WOULD SET FOOT IN A RAF. YOU ARE FREE TO CONTACT ANY OF THEM FOR THEIR VIEWS ON THE ISSUE. IF YOU LOOK CLOSELY AT THEIR SO CALLED "STABILATOR" ,IT IS NOTHING MORE THAN A ELECTRIC TRIM WHICH IS ACTIVATED BY AIRFLOW RIGHT BEHIND THE CABIN. YES, THE RAF IS CHEAP COMPARED TO OTHER GYROS, BUT PLEASE SPEAK TO EXPERIENCED PILOTS AND INSTRUCTORS BEFORE FLYING IN ONE.

[Spindoctor]

I HAVE YET TO READ ANY NEGATIVE FEEDBACK FROM ANY RAF OWNER WHO HAVE FITTED A PROPER STABILIZER.ALL OF THEM RAVED ABOUT THE VAST IMPROVEMENT THAT RESULTED.THE CONCENSUS IN THE AMERICAN GYRO FRATERNATY IS THAT RAF WOULD MAKE THEMSELVES LIABLE TO MASSIVE CLAIMS IF THEY START FITTING HORIZONTAL STABILIZERS BECAUSE IT WOULD IMPLICATE THAT ALL PREVIOUS MODELS WERE INHERENTLY UNSAFE.A ISSUE THAT PROBAPLY LED TO THE CLOSURE OF THE FACTORY IN CANADA.THE POOR SAFETY RECORD IS BOURNE OUT BY THE STATS ON THE PRCHAPTER WEBPAGE.JUST FOR THE RECORD, THE FIRST GYRO FATALITY IN S.A. WAS IN A RAF. IN SOUTH AFRICA THE SITUATION IS SO BAD THAT NO GYRO INSTRUCTOR,APART FROM THE RAF AGENTS, WOULD SET FOOT IN A RAF. YOU ARE FREE TO CONTACT ANY OF THEM FOR THEIR VIEWS ON THE ISSUE. IF YOU LOOK CLOSELY AT THEIR SO CALLED "STABILATOR" ,IT IS NOTHING MORE THAN A ELECTRIC TRIM WHICH IS ACTIVATED BY AIRFLOW RIGHT BEHIND THE CABIN. YES, THE RAF IS CHEAP COMPARED TO OTHER GYROS, BUT PLEASE SPEAK TO EXPERIENCED PILOTS AND INSTRUCTORS BEFORE FLYING IN ONE.

I think SARAF has sidestepped the questions I have asked. I would appreciate a succlent reply to the very simple question " Is the RAF pitch unstable without the modifications suggested by the PRA which specifically suggest the addition of a horizontal stabilizer?
The PRA has basically advised one not to fly in an unmodified gyro. My concern is simply am I taking a foolish and needless risk by ignoring the advice of the PRA? And while all flying is not inherently dangerous- It's either dangerous or it's not- is an inexperienced student pilot in an unmodified RAF going to have a more risky exposure?
I would welcome the input of any RAF instructor because so far I have not been afforded the decency of a reply from the first one whose correspondence I posted. As a prospective student and potential purchaser I must admit I feel pretty uncomfortable with what is beginning to seem a complete lack of honest transparency regarding the RAF.

[MICHIEL]

SPINDOCTOR, TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, THERE ARE NO OTHER RAF INSTRUCTERS IN SOUTH AFRICA APART FROM THE ONE WHOSE CORRESPONDENCE YOU POSTED AND WHO IS MOST LIKELY LOCATED IN UPINGTON. SHOULD ANYBODY CONTEMPLATE BUILDIND A RAF HE SHOULD FACTOR IN ALL ADDITIONAL COSTS SUCH AS 20 HOURS PROVING FLIGHT BY A SUITABLY QUALIFIED GYRO PILOT BEFORE TRAINING CAN COMMENCE,TRAILORING THE PLANE TO UPINGTON AND BACK, RETURNING TO UPINGTON TO COMMENCE TRAINING, ACCOMODATION IN UPINGTON AND TRAVELLING COSTS UNTIL TRAINING IS COMPLETED. A TIDY ADDITIONAL AMOUNT IN THE END. AND ONLY THEN CAN YOU MODIFY THE PLANE BY FITTING A STABILIZER BECAUSE RAF REFUSES TO TRAIN YOU IN A MODIFIED PLANE .AT LEAST THAT WAS THE SITUATION WHEN I BUILT A RAF KIT A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO.TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE NOTHING HAS CHANGED SINCE THEN, DESPITE MANY PROMISES FROM RAF THAT NEVER MATERIALISED

[saraf]

The RAF is not pitch unstable in its standard configeration.

Regards

SARAF

[MICHIEL]

The Ela and Magni is pitch stable in its standard "configeration"

[Cloud Warrior]

I tell you - the arguments that you gyro guys have wrt the various types of gyro are better than an episode of "Days" or "Bold". When do you ever have time to fly?

[Carel]

Quite a few of my friends own an fly gyros and from their talk it is quite clear that they all are afraid that another gyro brand other than their own, by accident actually discover how to fly. Among them it brand against brand, no united front like trike flyers for instance.

[Griffin]

I tell you - the arguments that you gyro guys have wrt the various types of gyro are better than an episode of "Days" or "Bold". When do you ever have time to fly?

You have discovered the secret about Gyro flying. They spend all their time in the air flying unlike us trike and fixed wing jockeys. While we are standing around the hanger talking and watching the wind sock they are up there doing it. Poor guys never get a chance to socialise. We should find some way to get them to meet each other and make friends.

(ducks and runs for cover)

[grostek]

Seems like Urban Legends abound for the RAF Gyrocopter.

Are there any unbiased test flight reports from an independent profesional Gyro pilot available??????

Then we can make up our own minds. Or at least I will then be able to make up my mind.

Kind regards

Gunter Rostek