Stalls

Questions about training in general, syllabus', requirements etc
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Morph
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Stalls

Postby Morph » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:48 am

This discussion comes from the Bantam Crash in Postmasburg thread. The guys thought it would be better to split it into another post
Low Level wrote:
Arnulf wrote:Correct.
An aircraft can stall at any airspeed, and any attitude.
Please elaborate. I'm curious.
RV4ker wrote:I have heard the stall warning go at over 100kts indicated in demo like this.
What to do then. Am I correct in saying in a usual stall you need to increase airspeed ?

A stall occurs when the angle of attack of the wing, relative to the airflow, exceeds that critical angle when the airflow over the top of the wing starts breaking up. This can happen at any speed or attitude. In other words, you could be in a high speed dive and you are pulling back on the stick, if you pull back too far, the angle of attack will reach that point, the airflow over the top of the wing breaks up and the wing stalls. The same can happen at full throttle on takeoff, if you pull the nose up too far the wing will stall.

to recover reduce the angle of attack
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Re: Bantam Down in Postmasburg area....

Postby Wargames » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:54 am

Low Level wrote:
Arnulf wrote:Correct.
An aircraft can stall at any airspeed, and any attitude.
Please elaborate. I'm curious.
Stalling is not a product of airspeed, but rather attitude of the wing(aerofoil) or angle of attack. If the angle of attack is greater than 16-17degrees(in most cases), you seperate the airflow over your wing, and thus stall.
Low Level wrote:
RV4ker wrote:I have heard the stall warning go at over 100kts indicated in demo like this.
What to do then. Am I correct in saying in a usual stall you need to increase airspeed ?
The normal procedure would seem like you would need to increase speed, but that is not true. You need to correct your attitude to the horizon, then you will unstall. Why you are taught to increase throttle to recover from a stall, is merely because you do not want to loose altitude.

Example: In aerobatics, if you are doing a loop and you are flying straight down to the ground at 100kts+. If you pull up to hard to complete loop, and you exeed the critical angle of attack(ie 16-17 degrees), you will stall with your nose pointing to the ground, and at 100kts.

Hope this help.
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Re: Bantam Down in Postmasburg area....

Postby Low Level » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:50 am

Morph wrote:A stall occurs when the angle of attack of the wing, relative to the airflow, exceeds that critical angle when the airflow over the top of the wing starts breaking up.
Thanx Morph/Wargames. I actually knew that :oops: , but one tends to forget it, cause I usually associate a stall with either flying too slow, or pulling too eagerly on the stick, BUT I also associated that with losing speed, therefore stall because too slow. The dive situation explains it quite well.
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Re: Bantam Down in Postmasburg area....

Postby Arnulf » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:03 am

Low Level wrote:
Arnulf wrote:Correct.
An aircraft can stall at any airspeed, and any attitude.
Please elaborate. I'm curious.
As requested, I will elaborate:

Stalls
An aircraft stall results from a rapid decrease in lift caused by
the separation of airflow from the wing’s surface brought on
by exceeding the critical AOA. A stall can occur at any pitch
attitude or airspeed.

The stalling speed of a particular aircraft is not a fixed value
for all flight situations, but a given aircraft always stalls at
the same AOA regardless of airspeed, weight, load factor,
or density altitude. Each aircraft has a particular AOA where
the airflow separates from the upper surface of the wing and
the stall occurs. This critical AOA varies from 16° to 20°
depending on the aircraft’s design. But each aircraft has only
one specific AOA where the stall occurs.

There are three flight situations in which the critical AOA
can be exceeded: low speed, high speed, and turning.


The aircraft can be stalled in straight-and-level flight by flying
too slowly. As the airspeed decreases, the AOA must be
increased to retain the lift required for maintaining altitude.
The lower the airspeed becomes, the more the AOA must
be increased. Eventually, an AOA is reached which results
in the wing not producing enough lift to support the aircraft
which starts settling. If the airspeed is reduced further, the
aircraft stalls, since the AOA has exceeded the critical angle
and the airflow over the wing is disrupted.

Low speed is not necessary to produce a stall. The wing can
be brought into an excessive AOA at any speed. For example,
an aircraft is in a dive with an airspeed of 100 knots when the
pilot pulls back sharply on the elevator control.
Gravity and centrifugal force prevent an immediate alteration
of the flightpath, but the aircraft’s AOA changes abruptly
from quite low to very high. Since the flightpath of the aircraft
in relation to the oncoming air determines the direction of the
relative wind, the AOA is suddenly increased, and the aircraft
would reach the stalling angle at a speed much greater than
the normal stall speed.

The stalling speed of an aircraft is also higher in a level turn
than in straight-and-level fl ight. Centrifugal
force is added to the aircraft’s weight and the wing must
produce sufficient additional lift to counterbalance the load
imposed by the combination of centrifugal force and weight.
In a turn, the necessary additional lift is acquired by applying
back pressure to the elevator control. This increases the wing’s
AOA, and results in increased lift. The AOA must increase
as the bank angle increases to counteract the increasing load
caused by centrifugal force. If at any time during a turn the
AOA becomes excessive, the aircraft stalls.

Lack of knowledge and understanding of stalls is the main reason for accidents involving
low level steep turns, and turning downwind
.

Please educate yourself on stalls. It may save your life.
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Re: Bantam Down in Postmasburg area....

Postby Gyronaut » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:02 am

Wargames wrote:... You need to correct your attitude to the horizon, then you will unstall.
A very useful topic and valid input all around. Dirk ou maat, net een byvoeging/regstelling vir duidelikheid...
Its the angle of attack relative to the oncoming wind that matters, not the horizon necessarily.
Arnulf wrote: ..Since the flightpath of the aircraft in relation to the oncoming air determines the direction of the relative wind...
Exactly!
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Re: Bantam Down in Postmasburg area....

Postby Wargames » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:06 am

JetRanger wrote:
Wargames wrote:... You need to correct your attitude to the horizon, then you will unstall.
A very useful topic and valid input all around. Dirk ou maat, net een byvoeging/regstelling vir duidelikheid...
Its the angle of attack relative to the oncoming wind that matters, not the horizon necessarily.
Very true. Bad explanation on my side. Was taking about when stalling straight and level, as the horizon is a fixed datum which can be used to describe the direction where airflow is coming from, and for that, give a reference for the angle of attack at which you are flying. My mistake for not being clear enough. :oops: :oops:
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Re: Bantam Down in Postmasburg area....

Postby bluesmancoops » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:11 am

this should be posted under technical - very good info
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Re: Stalls

Postby Stephan van Tonder » Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:57 pm

What you guys are covering is also mostly for fixed wing / 3 axis.

Here is something I point out to guys with trikes: found on this website which is a very nice site to go and read.

http://www.aerialpursuits.com/trikes/faqtech.htm


Recovery from unusual attitudes
Thanks to Paul Haines of the Sydney Microlight School for additional input.
One of the nice things about trikes is that under normal conditions, they are very pitch stable, and apart from flight in extreme turbulence or deliberate abuse, it is unusual to enter a pitch attitude that the aircraft itself will most likely recover from with little pilot input.

However, sh*t happens, as they say.

Nose very high with normal/excess airspeed. In this case, you're in good shape. Just ease the bar toward you and maintain power, till you get level again. (you may need a tad more power to keep the airspeed up, sometimes)

Nose very high with low airspeed. Watch it! Don't just wham the bar in hard. Before you actually stall, EASE the bar in while feeding in power. If you have actually stalled, be ready for a fairly savage stall break. (Aggravated stall)

Normal stall (result of nose high with low airspeed, uncorrected). Allow the nose to fall gently. As airspeed is gained, feed in power. For minimum height loss, feed out bar gradually and continue applying power as trike airspeed passes about 1.2 times stall speed.

Aggravated Stall (result of Nose very high with low airspeed, uncorrected). This is a potentially dangerous situation. DO NOT BE TEMPTED TO SNATCH THE BAR IN SHARPLY. The accepted wisdom is that you should maintain power at at least cruise level and keep the bar OUT. The result will be that the nose should drop to below the horizon with the machine in a mushing mode of flight, and hopefully pick up speed to the point where, when the aircraft has stopped loweing the nose and is picking up speed you can let the bar in a bit till full flying speed is reached, then return to level flight.

Should you snatch the bar in, you run the risk of imparting additional rotation to the stall break, in an extreme cae, this can lead to a tuck/tumble. BE WARNED - this has caused several fatalities!
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Re: Stalls

Postby Grumpy » Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:24 pm

Noted with interest !!
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Re: Stalls

Postby Boet » Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:08 am

Fitting a VG set to your wings can sometimes save the situation. It saved my bacon more than once.... :shock:
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Re: Stalls

Postby hersham » Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:55 pm

Boet, how many kts did the vg's reduce your stallspeed.I see in the Jabi forum on Avcom the guys are only reducing stall by app 4 kts.Would 4 kts be worth the effort and expense? Did any other characteristics change? greetings.
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Re: Stalls

Postby Wargames » Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:18 pm

hersham wrote:Boet, how many kts did the vg's reduce your stallspeed.I see in the Jabi forum on Avcom the guys are only reducing stall by app 4 kts.Would 4 kts be worth the effort and expense? Did any other characteristics change? greetings.
Its not about the speed, but more the stability that the vg's give. No nasty surprises as the airflow seperation is more predictable.
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Re: Stalls

Postby Gyronaut » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:39 pm

Ok so forgive my ignorance on fixed-wing issues but for interests sake... what on earth is a VG set?
The little fins on the end of the wing?
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Re: Stalls

Postby Grumpy » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:11 pm

JetRanger wrote:Ok so forgive my ignorance on fixed-wing
Ja Cos you don't have wings hey?? (^^)
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Re: Stalls

Postby Morph » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:25 pm

JetRanger wrote:Ok so forgive my ignorance on fixed-wing issues but for interests sake... what on earth is a VG set?
The little fins on the end of the wing?
they are vortex generators, fitted along the top of the wing near the leading edge. You can see them in these pics.

The Vortex generator creates vortices, which allow the wind to "stick" to the surface of the wing longer. The result is a higher angle of attack is achieved before finally the airflow breaks away resulting in a stall. This means that the wing stall speed is reduced
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