Microlighters

hey all --

something very interesting - and a breath of fresh air - no longer can Rotax monopolize the engine industry. Sauer, also a German made product has a line up of engines that are based head to head against the rotax counterpart - and for half the money. http://www.sauer-flugmotorenbau.de

Pity I don't have a plane to build (Navion excluded ofcourse) that I could buy an engine for..... anyone looking for a similar mount, weigh and performance both NA and turbocharged, id suggest you look here.

Can you translate

use Google translate -- In your tool bars.

Turbo wrote: - no longer can Rotax monopolize the engine industry.

Unfortunately, until anyone else gets them self ASTM certified, Rotax (and to a much lesser degree Jabiru) will hold the monopoly as these are the only 2 motors that have ASTM certification.

In a nutshell (and internationally speaking - not locally) , only ASTM certified LSA aircraft (classified as SLSA - "special" LSA) using ASTM equipment can be used for commercial operations including flight schools. Without an ASTM certified motor, your aircraft is classified as experimental and usage is rather limited.

I have had discussions with nearly all the motor manufactures regarding ASTM certification and they all say the same thing - "we are working on it" .... and they have been for the 3.5 years I have been in the industry.

ASTM certification is not such a big deal here in SA but in USA and Europe it is - the large ripple effect however, is that aircraft manufactures all over the world that have ASTM certification will not spend too much time and energy on supporting non certified motors. Designing a new engine mount, cowling, fuel system (possibly), air intakes etc and doing all the admin (re-working the POH) is a mammoth task so they simply can not put their limited energies into supporting all motor types out there or justify doing the job for a "once off".

My point being, if you go with any of these other motors, chances are you will be on your own. This again is not a huge deal as long as you as a buyer of these motors are a suitably qualified engineer (or have access to one that can assist) that can safely re-engine your aircraft. (there are very few (if any) motors that simply bolt on to an existing mount designed originayl for another motor - same goes for cowling). It might just work out less painful and less expensive to stick to Rotax in the long run.

Should the other motors ever get ASTM certification - the price will go up. Vicious circle.

Another point worth mentioning is that any variation from manufactures spec "could" decrease the resale value of your aircraft. This is just fine if you plan on keeping your aircraft for a long time but it is something one should consider.

Edited to add- I am not in any way against the other motors and experimenting with them in any way. I would love to see someone giving Rotax a run for their money. I am just making a few points regarding the pitfalls of entering unknown territory and to explain why manufactures seem to be loyal to the Rotax brand. I am a Rotax fan (4 strokes only) as I have been been well exposed to their reliability and good backup. The prices leave a lot to be desired.

what about our 'home built' aeries Mike? These do not require ASTM engines to fly in South Africa --- point in question, there are many options out there that are not a rip off like Rotax.... and will still be accepted in our LSA type aeries.

its about value for money -- Rotax is nice, but its OVER PRICED -- personally I wish an engine manufacturer came into the market and put them in their place with an affordable option for the general "masses" so that aviation can be put in a position of growth rather than where it is today, exclusive and expensive and only the rich can afford it.... that stigma must change.

Turbo wrote:what about our 'home built' aeries Mike? These do not require ASTM engines to fly in South Africa

Nope they don't as mentioned in previous post but the small amount of home builders in SA will not end a "monopoly".

More so - I am sure more than 50% of home builders here in SA are building from kits or plans - The kit manufacturer will not have the engineering and documented support for all motors in the market so again, you might be left out in the cold as far as support if you went for a non supported motor- that might be fine for a handful of home builders that have the skill and inclination to "maak n plan" but a high percentage will not try re-invent the wheel and will stick to a supported motor.

Mike ALL LSA planes are "home built" that's their classification - if it aint certified - its "home built" which is Rotax' main market - therefore if people had a decent motor with similar performance (which there are) that was as wide spread and available as Rotax, it would certainly end their monopoly - WHICH is killing the sport with the poor rand and and

make it more affordable and sell 20% more product and have an even more loyal following, and happier clients.

Henry ford said it best -- Business is a service, not a bonanza - incidentally you make money!!

Waiting for the Skywalker engine, then the 912 goes.

No Turbo. While it might seem like LSA aircraft are home-built full stop, its not that simple. Here in SA it might seem far more so but the driving factor is the US market.

An LSA in the US can be classed as an sLSA. IT can therefore be used for commercial applications. An fully experimental aircraft is extremely limiting. sLSA wins hands down in the popularity stakes due to the many advantages.

All the major kit and RTF LSA manufactures that I can think of have achieved sLSA status in the USA showing that they take this fairly seriously. Besides many other criteria that have to be complied with, an sLSA aircraft must have an ASTM approved motor. There are only 2 manufactures of ASTM approved motors worldwide that I know of. JAb and Rotax.

Until other motor brands get their certification, aircraft kit or RTF manufactures are less likely to take them seriously and less likely to spend time and energy on engineering and the relevant paperwork involved in designing mounts/cowling/fuel system/cooling system etc etc for these.

So if you want to go and design the mount and all the relative systems for a certain aircraft as a once off, you are more than welcome. But this is not everyone's cup of tea. But you (and another 50 or 100 like you) tinkering in your hangar/garage doing the mods, are not going to end the Rotax monopoly.

Should Viking etc get ASTM certification, then maybe things will start to change but as soon as they do, they too will increase in price so I am not sure anyone will be better off.

There are many motor choices out there. If you want a genuine home-built aircraft, no-one is stopping you using any of these motors.

My only point, is that you seem to think another brand coming on to the market that can compete with Rotax on power, reliability,weight and price will end their reign. Unfortunately, I don't see it happening for a long time for the reasons stated above.

Sideslip wrote:All the major kit and RTF LSA manufactures that I can think of have achieved sLSA status in the USA showing that they take this fairly seriously. Besides many other criteria that have to be complied with, an sLSA aircraft must have an ASTM approved motor. There are only 2 manufactures of ASTM approved motors worldwide that I know of. JAb and Rotax.

Well, HKS is also ASTM certified. And you also have the choice of using fully certified engines, like Lycoming, Continental, Sauer or Limbach.

The problem with the fully certified engines, is that they are either available fully certified (with the associated price hike), or uncertified (not even ASTM certified). Unlike Rotax - which is available as fully certified, or ASTM certified. The other problem, is of course, cost. Fully certified engines from other manufacturers cost the same as ASTM certified engines from Rotax, so why bother?

Sideslip wrote:No Turbo. While it might seem like LSA aircraft are home-built full stop, its not that simple. Here in SA it might seem far more so but the driving factor is the US market.

An LSA in the US can be classed as an sLSA. IT can therefore be used for commercial applications. An fully experimental aircraft is extremely limiting. sLSA wins hands down in the popularity stakes due to the many advantages.

All the major kit and RTF LSA manufactures that I can think of have achieved sLSA status in the USA showing that they take this fairly seriously. Besides many other criteria that have to be complied with, an sLSA aircraft must have an ASTM approved motor. There are only 2 manufactures of ASTM approved motors worldwide that I know of. JAb and Rotax.

Until other motor brands get their certification, aircraft kit or RTF manufactures are less likely to take them seriously and less likely to spend time and energy on engineering and the relevant paperwork involved in designing mounts/cowling/fuel system/cooling system etc etc for these.

So if you want to go and design the mount and all the relative systems for a certain aircraft as a once off, you are more than welcome. But this is not everyone's cup of tea. But you (and another 50 or 100 like you) tinkering in your hangar/garage doing the mods, are not going to end the Rotax monopoly.

Should Viking etc get ASTM certification, then maybe things will start to change but as soon as they do, they too will increase in price so I am not sure anyone will be better off.

There are many motor choices out there. If you want a genuine home-built aircraft, no-one is stopping you using any of these motors.

My only point, is that you seem to think another brand coming on to the market that can compete with Rotax on power, reliability,weight and price will end their reign. Unfortunately, I don't see it happening for a long time for the reasons stated above.

the point exactly Mike -- its easy to match and exceed Rotax power, reliability and price --- its paperwork that the poor fools are afraid of it seems. As they say the paperwork ends all -- even a lekker KAK. hehe

justin.schoeman wrote:

Sideslip wrote:All the major kit and RTF LSA manufactures that I can think of have achieved sLSA status in the USA showing that they take this fairly seriously. Besides many other criteria that have to be complied with, an sLSA aircraft must have an ASTM approved motor. There are only 2 manufactures of ASTM approved motors worldwide that I know of. JAb and Rotax.

Well, HKS is also ASTM certified. And you also have the choice of using fully certified engines, like Lycoming, Continental, Sauer or Limbach.

The problem with the fully certified engines, is that they are either available fully certified (with the associated price hike), or uncertified (not even ASTM certified). Unlike Rotax - which is available as fully certified, or ASTM certified. The other problem, is of course, cost. Fully certified engines from other manufacturers cost the same as ASTM certified engines from Rotax, so why bother?

to be honest Justin I would rather use a Lycoming or Continental in my plane than a Rotax, purely because their parts prices and customer approach/focus is a lot lower/better (respectively) AND there are companies out there who manufacture top notch replacements for these engines at such affordable rates aswell.

Turbo wrote:

justin.schoeman wrote:

Sideslip wrote:All the major kit and RTF LSA manufactures that I can think of have achieved sLSA status in the USA showing that they take this fairly seriously. Besides many other criteria that have to be complied with, an sLSA aircraft must have an ASTM approved motor. There are only 2 manufactures of ASTM approved motors worldwide that I know of. JAb and Rotax.

Well, HKS is also ASTM certified. And you also have the choice of using fully certified engines, like Lycoming, Continental, Sauer or Limbach.

The problem with the fully certified engines, is that they are either available fully certified (with the associated price hike), or uncertified (not even ASTM certified). Unlike Rotax - which is available as fully certified, or ASTM certified. The other problem, is of course, cost. Fully certified engines from other manufacturers cost the same as ASTM certified engines from Rotax, so why bother?

to be honest Justin I would rather use a Lycoming or Continental in my plane than a Rotax, purely because their parts prices and customer approach/focus is a lot lower/better (respectively) AND there are companies out there who manufacture top notch replacements for these engines at such affordable rates aswell.

Yup - weight (or at least lack thereof) comes at a serious premium. Lycontisauri are very economical (in terms of $/hp), but you need to budget at least 20 extra kg (40kg for the cheaper non-LSA versions)...

OORRRRRR you could go with a Revmaster .......

Is it ????

Really??

Can it be......???

NAAAHHHHH cant be ....... ?

Surely?

AAIIBO - it aint! Its 130HP engine which uses air cooled cylinders and oil cooled heads. 4 stroke - 4 cylinder, lighter and more powerful than Rotax, half the price of Rotax, and FULLY fuel injected - there is such a long list of features and nice things about this - but what makes it really nice is that it does not require any module/interface to interface into the MGL or other external electronic equipment. It has all the outputs already wired that need to be connected. Simple analog signals or digital if you prefer -- ready to plug in ---

Full CNC machined engine - with real nice features made in froggy land with the frenchies -- hows 18000 euro sound for a complete engine with ALL accessories, including EFI, Fuel pumps, coolers, piping, output wiring, and and and --- rotax kiss my @@rrSSE

Oh and according to the sales dude -- it is certified..... im not interested in that side of things, but whomever is, Id suggest you research it further. now to find a plane that needs this power plant.... mmmhhhhhh

Turbo wrote:Oh and according to the sales dude -- it is certified..... im not interested in that side of things, but whomever is, Id suggest you research it further. now to find a plane that needs this power plant.... mmmhhhhhh

Forgot about UL Power - they got ASTM approval last year...

Fits on a Jab mount, which is already available for the Cheetah, if you are looking for something to play with .