MISASA, Please help us simplify

[kloot piloot]

Everyone of us does the ATF thingy every year.
My ATF expires on 15 January. I therefor book my AP for 8 January, to be able to send in my forms to RAASA on 9 January, in order to get my papers back before my ATF expires.

RAASA books my new expiry date as 10 January. Next year I have to book my AP over Christmas. The year thereafter I will miss my Christmas holiday due to a regressing system.

I have pleaded in the past (search this forum) to get to a system similar to car licensing ?

It is rather frustrating to have my next AP almost in my Christmas Holiday,
My next Medical will be in September.
My next NPL renewal is in May.
ICASA due in August.

I feel like I am constantly doing statutary paperwork. Hell, it has become hard, if not difficult, to remain compliant to fly a trike !

Is there no way that Misasa can convince the powers to be that we (Misasa) introduce a system where members can be given a month of the year to comply with all the above ?

You will definitely not loose members by introducing some sort of sanity.

PLEEEEEEEAAASE ?

[Bundy]

Morning Kloot,

Sheesh buddy, worrying about your ATF at 11h53 PM is not good for you....make sure you get your beauty sleep! Gives new meaning to the phrase "keeping you up all night"

You have asked a very broad question, and the short answer is No. There is no way that all these dates will coincide in one month for a number of reasons....like:

1: Your medical is based on you medical status....this changes due to injury/disease etc etc
2: Your Licence is based on your competency....this also can change. (How many landing within 90 days etc etc etc, disciplinary issues may affect this date too!)
3: Radio licence expiry is done according to ICASA's system and they need their funds at the start of their respective Finacial year (Please dont ask me what they do with their funding )
4: ATF is based more on airworthiness than anything else.
5: AeCSA/Misasa membership is based on our financial years. Again, the funds need to be paid so that budgetted expenses can be dealt with, etc etc etc.

Bottom line is they are all seperate things that have to be complied with none of which have a co inciding date (and cannot have one because one or more of these may change within the next calender year)

On the ATF side of things.....

This is not the first time this has been proposed or discussed. MISASA has no jurisdiction or mandate with regard to the issuing of Licences (in this case the ATF, which is fundamentally your "plane licence"). The reason why the ATF validity is based on the Date of Inspection is because that is the date from which the Aircraft is classed as "Airworthy" by the AP who carries out the inspection.

I think you have more chance of falling pregnant than getting RAASA (the Authority in this case responsible) to change that clause. Ultimately they fall under what the CAA wants to implement as Law. The problem is that there is no garuantee that the ATF will indeed be valid for 12 months in any case because it depends on the state of airworthiness of the aircraft.

A brief example or two:

1: Take our plane for instance... DBP. We had a new ATF issued on purchase in Nov 2011, but due to the prang it is no longer valid, so we will be getting a new ATF within the next few weeks valid from the respective inspection date.

2: Let's say for example you do your AP a week before the ATF expires. Oops....failed wing test....boom.... R23K later and a new wingsail fitted and only then can your plane pass an inspection. A few weeks or months may have passed inbetween? Many cases like this too.

I get your point, it would be nice to have a "grace period" and possibly have the ATF run concurrently (IE same expiry date) every year as long as there are no "mitigating circumstances" as I've mentioned above. What I'm trying to point out though is that it is unlikely that this will be the case year on year for an extended amount of time anyway?

I am happy to discuss the matter with RAASA if you members so wish? Let's just discuss the whole thing here first?
Laat Waai mense....

[Gompou]

Bundy

Why can there not be a window period of 14 days to do the ATF (before the expire date), and the ATF then issued on the same date each year?

Thanks
Gompou

[skybound®]

I have had a look at the law and I beleive the ATF creep issue could be 'fixed'. Only issue is that it is the CARs that require amendment and that is no simple task. Even once the wording has been agreed etc, it takes years to get through. However with that said, I do believe it would be worthwhile to push it forward.

In a nusthell, the ATF process could be amended to operate on the same basis as your medical - where the expiry of your medical is always the last calendar day of the month in which you pass it. For instance when you do your medical on 15 June 20xx - the expiry of that medical is 30 June 20yy. Essentially this allows you to always do your medical anytime in June each year and will not suffer the time creep as does your ATF. So essentially in your example kloot - my proposal would be that your ATF expiry should be 31 Jan 2013 even though it was inspected or ATF issued on 15 Jan 2012.

However this is only 1 small item - in what I also believe has become a really overburdened paperwork trail to ensure that both pilot and craft remain legal.

[Bundy]

Bundy

Why can there not be a window period of 14 days to do the ATF (before the expire date), and the ATF then issued on the same date each year?

Thanks
Gompou

Like I said, I'm happy to put it forward for discussion at Raasa, but I really dont see the point of doing so when the other legalities dont expire on the same date? The status of your ATF can change at anytime too as I mentioned above...accident/unforseen costly maintenance....

It will take more than a few posts here to make RAASA/CAA want to change anything guys... I still dont find it that difficult to stay legal...plan your year in advance, write down the expiry dates in your diary....even better....on your plane.
It will take a miracle to simplify the process, very small chance of things changing from what they are, far more chance of them getting even more complicated!!

[Duck Rogers]

I have had a look at the law and I believe the ATF creep issue could be 'fixed'.

We discussed this at the last AP seminar. I think they resolved to have a look at it and see what can be done. So far no feedback yet.......(that I know of)

[HansH]

Why the negativity and reasons why it can't be done Bundy?
Realistically the ATF has to be done at least 2 weeks before expiry. So when a pilot gets his precious piece of paper it is really only valid for 11 1/2 months because the new expiry is 2 weeks sooner than the previous years one.
What on earth is so damn difficult about adopting a system that if a check is done within a certain month then the ATF expiry date is the last day of that month.Even bureaucrats should be able to get their heads around that.
This gives everybody more flexibility to make arrangements and will simplify the whole process. Checks will be done more timeously and not left to the last minute because of the bureaucratic mindset involved in the process.
The same applies to the licence, make the expiry on the last day of the month.
I think that nobody really accepts the fact that everything must expire on one given date...that is impossible,but simply tidy up the bureaucratic paperwork so that it all expires on the last day of the month.
Over the years aviation has become more and more bogged down with bureaucratic requirements to the extent that recreational flying is no longer a pleasurable pasttime but a time and money consuming schlep. No wonder that it is going downhill.

[Bundy]

Why the negativity and reasons why it can't be done Bundy?
Realistically the ATF has to be done at least 2 weeks before expiry. So when a pilot gets his precious piece of paper it is really only valid for 11 1/2 months because the new expiry is 2 weeks sooner than the previous years one.
What on earth is so damn difficult about adopting a system that if a check is done within a certain month then the ATF expiry date is the last day of that month.Even bureaucrats should be able to get their heads around that.
This gives everybody more flexibility to make arrangements and will simplify the whole process. Checks will be done more timeously and not left to the last minute because of the bureaucratic mindset involved in the process.
The same applies to the licence, make the expiry on the last day of the month.
I think that nobody really accepts the fact that everything must expire on one given date...that is impossible,but simply tidy up the bureaucratic paperwork so that it all expires on the last day of the month.
Over the years aviation has become more and more bogged down with bureaucratic requirements to the extent that recreational flying is no longer a pleasurable pasttime but a time and money consuming schlep. No wonder that it is going downhill.

Hans, you must not twist my words. I am not negative towards suggestions that may simplify the process, on the contrary, I would welcome them for obvious reasons. I am quite happy to put the matter forward to RAASA on behalf of Misasa members if the rest of the commitee is in agreement, but it will take a monumental effort to get the CAR's changed. It is not a process that happens overnight. As Skybound has mentioned above, it will take years to sort it out, lots of legal fees and countless meetings of the powers that be.(the "beaurecrats" )
All I am questioning is what difference it would make to the overall picture....or "schlepp" as you have described it. To me it does not matter what day the ATF expires....I still have to get it done by law....with the exception of the radio licence/AeCSA/Misasa renewal dates (which are the same every year) the other three have expiry dates which change according to the circumstances and will probably change over the period of a few years anyway regardless of the proposed changes?

You and I didnt make the rules..... The system is what it is, certainly not without its faults but nevertheless it is the law. Flying, just like any other aspect of life will ultimately become more and more complicated and "regulated" due to the simple fact that there are more and more people partaking in the various disciplines....also.... If Recreational Aviation had a better safety record, we would see far less regulation in place!
Like it or hate it, some regulation will always be necessary. The problem is that when these things are implemented, more thought is given to the law/regulation itself and very little thought is given to the implementation/practicality thereof.

[skybound®]

Bundy, the suggestion that things could get more complicated may just break the camels back. I consider myself as one that is pretty okay with doing paperwork and admin and it has not scared me in the past. However it is certainly beginning to get to the point where I am saying to myself that there are so many bits that one needs to keep in order that it is reaching the point (if it has not already) where pilots are going to just throw it to the wind and fly illegally as the chances are that they missed one small dot somewhere that makes them illegal anyway.

Prime example was with MISASA getting it's ARO. I would like to know how many pilots became illegal the day that ARO was signed? I would hazzard that number was (and may still be) significant.

In essence all the regulations/paperwork being tossed our way is approaching the point where law abiding individuals will (or already are) just flying illegally. It is very much like squeezing a piece of soap in ones hand - the tighter you squeeze, at some point it will pop out of your hand.

If you were to run a poll here on should MISASA investigate ways to make things simpler - I believe that poll would rate high enough to put some resources towards a formal project.

[kloot piloot]

Thanks Bundy,
You wrote:

I am quite happy to put the matter forward to RAASA on behalf of Misasa members if the rest of the commitee is in agreement,

I cannot speak on behalve of everyone, but there are some very valid and constructive suggestions:

HansH

What on earth is so damn difficult about adopting a system that if a check is done within a certain month then the ATF expiry date is the last day of that month.Even bureaucrats should be able to get their heads around that.

Skybound:

In a nusthell, the ATF process could be amended to operate on the same basis as your medical - where the expiry of your medical is always the last calendar day of the month in which you pass it.

Gompou:

Why can there not be a window period of 14 days to do the ATF (before the expire date), and the ATF then issued on the same date each year?

We might not see a change in our lifetime, but our kids will be thankfull by the time they start flying.

[Tumbleweed]

I dont see it as being such an issue to change. CAA currently allows it with the medical renewals i.e. it runs till the last day of the month, one or two years from your inspection/ consultation check-up.

[Blue Max]

There is nothing in life that cant be changed.!!

Over the years aviation has become more and more bogged down with bureaucratic requirements to the extent that recreational flying is no longer a pleasurable pasttime but a time and money consuming schlep. No wonder that it is going downhill

The other day I read that in 1985 there were practically no laws in regards to recreational flying..!!
After 1985 laws to regulate recreational flying were made..
It will be correct to say that aviation laws regulating recreational flying are in their infant shoes.
Hopefully in years to come it will need to change to be more acceptable to every-one.
If you own more than one aircraft all the requirements becomes a burden..

Ek kry n groot pyn in my fondament ( my gat) wanneer ek in my karrietjie moet klim om na Edenvale toe te ry, in heavy traffic, om al die donnerse goeters te gaan doen en betalings te maak net sodat ek kan vlieg...For crying out aloud.. maak dit makliker..

[kloot piloot]

I started this thread quiet friendly in order to ask Misasa to think long term. We are but the curators of the next generation. Legislation has trebled over the past 15 years and will most likely treble again over the next 5 years. Not that it will make me stop flying and stay legal. No ways.

But Bundy, although you defended the existing system correctly, you failed to reason proggresively ? We, the users, are paying the salaries of the legislature. Surely we are entitled to request streamlining.

The SAPOS (postal) strike has not been resolved for over 30 days now. I cry for the far away pilots who are dependent on postage. I cry for GA pilots living in Pta having to travel to RAASA's Rand offices. That alone takes a day leave.

May I suggest that RAASA be pursuaded by a big body like Misasa to appoint regional representatives in the various centra and provinces to accept applications etc. ? Or, why can't AP's (seeing that they are "Approved" by RAASA) collect my money and forms, notify RAASA telephonically to inform them that I have complied ? Whatever.

I reitterate, the system (notwithstanding CARS) can be made more streamlined, seeing that the system is being financed by the user, i.e. the pilot anyway. You do not need to change CAR's to do this.

Maybe RAASA should be asked to become more user friendly. I don't know, but at the moment the system just feels cumbersome. If it was my company I would have run it differently. My company would strive to serve the requirements of its customers, not vice versa.

Please

[Tumbleweed]

Speaking to a local successful AMO, I asked him why he does'nt service ntca and Rotax powered aerries and I got the most animated yet humorous attack.

'If I wanted more k@k in my life I would rather get 3 ex wives and visit the dentist weekly."

When i heard of the crap they go through just to function i.e. after waiting for critical approval from CAA before a client can fly fly his aerrie and them not responding to his faxed documentation, he flies to Grand Central, bums a lift to CAA, visits to the fax machine and operator to see that there is no paper in the machine. K@ks them out, loads the paper, and.....over 30 faxes needs to print out and 20 minutes before his comes out.

Even with an efficient secretary lots of his time is wasted with bearocracy, audits and expensive renewals that makes our issues insignificant.

[Bundy]

But Bundy, although you defended the existing system correctly, you failed to reason proggresively ? We, the users, are paying the salaries of the legislature. Surely we are entitled to request streamlining.

Maybe RAASA should be asked to become more user friendly. I don't know, but at the moment the system just feels cumbersome. If it was my company I would have run it differently. My company would strive to serve the requirements of its customers, not vice versa.

Roel, I feel your pain mate. I also do sympathise greatly for those pilots in the outlying areas, (Gompou above for instance) who must really struggle to conform to all the regulations that have been put in place. I can only imagine how frustrating the whole process must be for a pilot who flies different types of aircraft....with different ratings etc etc all of which they need to have their respective "papers" in place. Oom Paul above (the oldest and wisest member of the Vulture Squadron ) mentions, the lack of such regulations a few decades ago.... everyone pretty much did as they pleased. I believe that most of these requirements, and indeed the CAR's themselves were put in place (and tweaked/added upon over the years) in most cases as a direct result of accidents and poor airmanship displayed by some pilots world wide.....not just in SA. IE the Reg's were put in place to try and control or improve the dismal safety record of GA in this country and most of them are based on ICAO std's or reccomendations. Whether this has been succesful or not is debatable at best?....GA still has a dismal safety record To be honest, it probably comes down to the fact that the "Mavericks" of 20 years ago are still the same as the Mavericks today, and those who want break the rules will break them.... no matter how many rules the Authorities decide to put in place?

The call on this thread was for "simplification" or "streamlining" of all these things. If EVERYTHING went through one Authority, this would probably be possible....but the fact remains that in our little world of NTCA's we deal with 5 different organizations/Authorities.

1: CAA (Registration/Disciplinary issues)
2: RAASA (ATF's and Licencing/Ratings, Special event clearances, validation of medicals etc)
3: Icasa (Radio Licensing)
4: Aeroclub/Misasa ARO (AP Programme and our representative organisation) I grouped these two together....

Each of the above operate completely independantly to the rest, and each one deals with a different aspect of our sport /hobby. Can you see now how difficult any stream lining process would be? The chances of the Authorities lifting/easing off on the requirements as they are now is very unlikely and would probably only be considered if the safety record was massively improved. I do believe however that there are a great many ways to make it easier for us pilots to conform to the Law as it currently stands by making technology work for us. For example...Having your AP e mail/scan the documents to RAASA on your behalf etc etc. We have allready touched on the creep issue of the ATF.....that can probably also be solved....

Please make some practical suggestions here, so we can formulate them and then take them up wih the relevant Authority.?

Here's some other "food for thought"..... .....

What concerns me more than anything above, is the nightmare it is becoming for our training Organizations/AMO's to operate with all these reg's in place. For our sport to continue well into the future we need our school's and maintenance persons to do well. Something that is becoming increasingly difficult to achieve.... The biggest threat our sport faces, is not how many reg's they impose on our pilots, but how many reg's they impose on our ATO's and AMO's. When our schools start closing down due to the "gatvol factor" recreational flying will cease to exist. I think we need to spend a lot more time and effort in making it practical for these Org's to operate legally.

Another big problem is the question of Discipline....and more importantly....how to enforce the Law. As it stands, I do not see a proper, fair, or consistent system for this issue in place within any organization. The CAA who carries the ultimate responsibility for enforcement seem to cherry pick the cases they choose to impose fines/suspentions on, completely at random it seems?
Right or wrong, a pilot who is accused of doing something wrong has a right to be treated fairly within a controlled and structured Disciplinary process which has to include the ARO in question. In our case that is MISASA. Currently, there is NO DIALOUGE taking place between the relevant Authority (CAA) and Misasa in these cases. Most times we the ARO find out via the grapevine that one of our pilots has had a fine imposed on them. The system is not working chaps. I know of many documented accidents involving other pilots in other aircraft, who dispite being found guilty of serious offences have not recieved even a stern letter from the CAA? I find it a very unfair/inconsistent action on the part of the CAA. Misasa continues to try and get clarification on this issue....

Like I said....the system is not perfect, far from it. Let's try and change what we can to make it easier for everyone to comply by all means....but the Reg's are here to stay guys. Not much we can do about that.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend. (Damn I'm missing my plane.... )