CAA - Termination of student training

[Thunderboy]

I heard the CAA wants flight schools to terminate the training of a student if they have not reached certain pre set stages by certain pre set hours. For instance you might be given a max of 8 hours to complete initial GF trianing, you will need to be solo by 30 hours etc or taining must be terminated.

Question is, if the student is paying for these lessons and is willng to continue why should he be made to stop if he is a slow learner?
Everyone has a different learning curve.
I read in the latest African pilot that the average ppl takes 55-65 hours and not the minimum 40 hours.

The flight school I am at is against this and is rathe going to implement a recomended termination at the various stages.

[Morph]

I can understand if this is a government sponsored school and the student is taking up valuable funds and has absolutely no chance of passing. But this arrangement is a private one between schools who are private institutions and individuals.

Maybe they (CAA) are scared of people flying who just don't have the talent. Any decent respectable school should, and I believe they do, be able to tell a student that he/she just doesn't have what it takes and that they are wasting their own money. Sometimes the delays are caused by work/budget etc and this can extend the time taken to complete a licence.

Was is important though, in my mind is to ensure that a certain frequency of training is maintanined, i.e. you will never learn if you are only doing one lesson a month, but then again, it's up to the school to tell the student that he is wasting his own money.

[Thunderboy]

I agree that if it's tax money as I've heard of certain 'cadets' in Pretoria still battling with taxing at 40 hours.
I do think its only fair that a flight school lets you know if they think there is no chance of you making it otherwise you are just wasting your money. Maybee there are some schools out there just milking students and that is what CAA is trying to prevent.

[GR8-DAD]

Agree and disagree

We can actually ask the instructors on this forum, and they should know best, but I've heard from some instructors that a many good pilots actually took a while before going solo and turned out being pretty awsome good pilots - well trained

How many good pilots are out there who worked their buts off part time to be able to do their training, even over a period as long as a year or more.

Surely driving a car and failing your license 10 times should be seen in a lot more serious light The final flight test must surely be the gauge of your competency - doesn't matter how long it took to get your license

[Morph]

Ryan I agree but there should be no reason to legislate it. Once the legislation is passed the original motivation will be forgotton and those who are slow for other reasons will be painted under the same brush and thus suffer.

Additionally CAA or Misasa should provide a forum for a student who feels he is being unjustly ripped off or delayed deliberately to be able to lodge a complaint. CAA or Misasa should then be able to request a report from the school as to the students progress and be able to act on it.

[Thunderboy]

Absolutely. I took quite a while to go solo which I have just done but my instructor let me know that the day would come. I would not have been happy going solo much earlier, however if this legislation was in my training would have been terminated after all the other hard work and money put in.

[Morph]

There is sometimes too much emphasis on trying to go solo quickly, I for one wanted to beat the school record of just over 6 hours (3-axis) and was dissapointed when I passed that point and felt the instructor was doing me in. As a result I almost pushed him in to sending me solo at 10 hours, and now I know I was not ready. I went on a very long solo cross-country, hit some extreme turbulance I didn't expect resulting in me losing my nerve and quiting flying for 5 years. I olnly picked it up again last year, took my time with a different instructor, went solo and qualified in April 2005. During this last year I have put on over 100 hours and I am much happier now.

[t-bird]

Misasa should get a list of all pilots who qualify and the number of hours they took to fly solo.

Misasa should then investigate schools where the average student takes longer to solo. It is a simple spreadsheet with a standard deviation calculation

I had an experience where I have trained at a school with an uphill runway, electrical wires on the sides ,poles next to the runway and trees that created rotors.

I had invested 27 hours at this school and was a long way from solo. I moved to Rhino park and was solo after 2 hours.

Now there is schools out there that argue that if you trained at a difficult airfield that you would be a better pilot. My argument is that you need to crawl before you can walk.

They real training only starts from solo.

[Bennie Vorster]

Come on guys, legislation in this country is just another toothless dog. Have you ever seen someone locked up for flying without a license or even got a fine? What is another legislation You all stress yourselves out for something that is not even implementable in our country, I mean we criminals have rights too you know.

[The Agent]

Bennie jy behoort beter te weet.

Ja Bennie and I got together this afternoon in the entertainment mecca of SA for a social chat and drink. Bapsfontein.

Bennie nice to have met you and one day when we can fly high enough we will visit your valley.
Safe driving back to NC

[RV4ker (RIP)]

Was similar discussion on AVCOM some time ago. Bottom line I think they trying to stop school ripping off students. (60 hrs and not yet gone solo) and those students which are not going to get there and are using up the resources (Can't see that sticking as it an arms length transaction between willig buyer & willing seller, but that another argument.)

I agree with a monitoring system, but no regulations - maybe guidelines. When license app is handed it the hrs for solo, dual and license shoudl be recorded and a database established which can be used by schools and students as basis for progress. if you are 60hrs down line and not solo yet there may be extrodinry circumstances (there are some real ones which make perfect sense) or you are just not ment to fly....

Don't like regulalation telling me what I can & can't do, butthat just personal feeling. It usually when Pupil not paying themselves when it get's abused. (sorry to all Dad's paying for their little ones, but beware there are those that will milk the situation) When Student is paying his own way (usually) there is serious motivation to get there.

2c

[Fairy Flycatcher]

We were asked to write some details into our ops-manual of what guidelines to follow to decide when to terminate a student's training. The number of hours is just one aspect.

For any instructor its a difficult call. I think most of us do it firstly for the love of flying. I want to share the ability to fly with many people, but there are some people who are just a hazard to themselves and other "sky-users".

This is almost never about how long they take to go solo, but what objective criteria can you use? How do you tell someone they are too cockey, too "slapgat", too useless, bad airmanship, unable to multitask?

I think the attempt to encourage schools to have a way out of finishing students because they have started training them, is a good move. So far I have not seen any attempt at legislation, only a request to schools to formalise some basic standards. Maybe not such a bad thing?

[GR8-DAD]

Hi FF, just for interest sake, approx what % students that start their training actually complete it, ie. how many drop outs? Is theory ever a reason for students bailing out?

[ICEMAN]

Surely the capabilities of the student should be left to the assesment of their instructor, and not some legislation paper.

Is it not possible that a student can be sent out too quickly for a solo or excercise if the instructor or school is being pressurised by a legislated timeframe...... ie surely the progress assessment should be left to the instructors discretion

[Morph]

I think the attempt to encourage schools to have a way out of finishing students because they have started training them, is a good move. So far I have not seen any attempt at legislation, only a request to schools to formalise some basic standards. Maybe not such a bad thing?

I believe FF has a valid point that I had not seen previously. How do you tell someone that they just don't have it. If the rule exists then the schools can simply apply the rule to the guys who will never learn to fly.

"Sorry 'Billy-Joe-Jim-Bob', CAA recommends you to have at least solo'd before 60 hours and since you are still learning to taxi, we as a school cannot continue with your training as per Rule 24 Section 13 paragraph 3 of the the "How to teach dumbasses to fly" Chapter of Document ICAH42 published by CAA 2006."

The schools still have the discretion to continue with those students who have the ability but for other reasons are taking too long.