ATC's vs TRIKES -DO THEY THINK WE ARE MERE NUISANCES?
Re: ATC's vs TRIKES -DO THEY THINK WE ARE MERE NUISANCES?
Were you reported to CAA Asterix? Or did you sort out your differences.... Not nice for something like that to spoil a good day's flying
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Asterix
Re: ATC's vs TRIKES -DO THEY THINK WE ARE MERE NUISANCES?
Bundy, no, not reported, and did not spoil rest of the trip, it did however leave me angry/sad/confused/scared for a while - I really didn't mean to be ignorant/cowboy/etc. Gaylord, the problem arose precisely because of that - unmanned tower to start of with, which then compounded.
Re: ATC's vs TRIKES -DO THEY THINK WE ARE MERE NUISANCES?
Most of us spend about 1800 hours a year doing our jobs and therefore are quite comfortable doing it and make very few mistakes. I speak to an ATC maybe once or twice a year and can unfortunately not say the same for radio procedure in controlled airspace. The ATC should spend about the same amount of time doing his/her job and therefore are quite comfortable doing it. I am sure if the ATC had to do my job once or twice a year even with the relevant qualification obtained some years ago he/she will also be uncomfortable and make some mistakes. The only difference is it will not get broadcasted to the whole world.
We are not commercial pilots and most of us do not get to "practice" radio procedure within controlled airspace often so we are bound to make mistakes. Add wind noise and unclear comms to it and it is even worse (The recording is very clear, not so clear when listening to it in flight). I listen to ORTIA often and can tell you that the big boys also botch it up from time to time. My opinion is we are too scared to request the ATC to repeat the transmission. Listen to the commercial pilot (No wind noise in his ears) in the beginning of the video asking the ATC to repeat the QNH and the ATC actually repeating it much clearer than the first time.
Knowing the area you fly in also helps. We were totally unfamiliar with the area and deviated from the planned route in flight because of bad weather, so we actually approached from the NW and routed east of the airfield. This may have caused some confusion as we approached the airspace from the north west but were well on our way east of the airfield when the ATC surfaced.
Oh, and turbulence does not make things easier either, look at him bouncing around while talking
Yes, my friend Asterix, like all of us, made some minor mistakes but at least he spoke to the ATC and shared it with everyone so that we can learn from it. If it was me doing the radio work I probably would have stuffed it up as well. Too many trike pilots stay "under the radar" so to speak and sneak through controlled airspace without saying anything.
In conclusion I think there are some lessons for trike pilots and others to be learned here.
1) Familiarize yourself with the area and reporting points.
2) Fly into controlled airspace as often as you can to practice your radio procedure and to get rid of bad habits. Copy ?
3) Don't be afraid to ask the ATC to repeat the transmission or the part of it you did not hear.
4) Never, never ever try to sound like Sean Connery on the radio, even if you are an ATC, nobody is that cool......
5) Nobody wants to hear you explain in detail, in wheat-eater language with the customary pauses and uhhms, about everything from the color of your leather upholstery to the two blondes in the back of your plane, say who you are where you are and where you plan to be and then shut up and listen ..... or go to chat.
We are not commercial pilots and most of us do not get to "practice" radio procedure within controlled airspace often so we are bound to make mistakes. Add wind noise and unclear comms to it and it is even worse (The recording is very clear, not so clear when listening to it in flight). I listen to ORTIA often and can tell you that the big boys also botch it up from time to time. My opinion is we are too scared to request the ATC to repeat the transmission. Listen to the commercial pilot (No wind noise in his ears) in the beginning of the video asking the ATC to repeat the QNH and the ATC actually repeating it much clearer than the first time.
Knowing the area you fly in also helps. We were totally unfamiliar with the area and deviated from the planned route in flight because of bad weather, so we actually approached from the NW and routed east of the airfield. This may have caused some confusion as we approached the airspace from the north west but were well on our way east of the airfield when the ATC surfaced.
- East is East and West is West
Yes, my friend Asterix, like all of us, made some minor mistakes but at least he spoke to the ATC and shared it with everyone so that we can learn from it. If it was me doing the radio work I probably would have stuffed it up as well. Too many trike pilots stay "under the radar" so to speak and sneak through controlled airspace without saying anything.
In conclusion I think there are some lessons for trike pilots and others to be learned here.
1) Familiarize yourself with the area and reporting points.
2) Fly into controlled airspace as often as you can to practice your radio procedure and to get rid of bad habits. Copy ?
3) Don't be afraid to ask the ATC to repeat the transmission or the part of it you did not hear.
4) Never, never ever try to sound like Sean Connery on the radio, even if you are an ATC, nobody is that cool......
5) Nobody wants to hear you explain in detail, in wheat-eater language with the customary pauses and uhhms, about everything from the color of your leather upholstery to the two blondes in the back of your plane, say who you are where you are and where you plan to be and then shut up and listen ..... or go to chat.
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Asterix
Re: ATC's vs TRIKES -DO THEY THINK WE ARE MERE NUISANCES?
Thanks Buddy - and - points taken - I copy
On a different note - just heard that 2 Albatrosses with six on board each went missing flying back from an airshow to Rand?
Searches underway...
On a different note - just heard that 2 Albatrosses with six on board each went missing flying back from an airshow to Rand?
Searches underway... 
Re: ATC's vs TRIKES -DO THEY THINK WE ARE MERE NUISANCES?
Hi Asterixs - I know how you feel (I think we all do)and maybe I can put you at ease and offer some food for thought.
During my training, I once sat on the back of a trike on a group fly in to FAGM. All I could think of was that there was no ways I could ever have flown this, as not only was it way to much for me to keep station in the group, but I could not follow any of the radio instructions.
Later on , once qualified, I was lucky enough to tag on the back of the experts like Rudi, Angelo, etc. and started to fly away as part of the group. This was the best learning experience ever. I often would suggest back to the instuctors that they should make it part of their instruction to lead a group of low hour solo pilots in their care into controlled air space, or through the Pinedene corridor, but it has not happened yet. As part of a group I got to familiarize myself with controlled airspace, although the thought of me doing the radio work for the group was still way worse than the midday thermals.
Then the day came that I had to fly the pinedene route solo, and I spent the previous night re reading the radio text book and making some notes for myself. I arrived at Baps tower and called for permission the enter the pinedene route only to find the tower unmanned, so I blindly called my way through patting myself on the back that I was so well prepared etc. when as I called clear of ultra city a booming voice came on the radio asking ME what the weather was like and if it was raining. It was Grand Central Tower and they had been monitoring my progress. I nearly kaked myself.
Anyway, I now had done the route many times solo with or without the tower and I have learned to accept the tower. I once had the tower warning me of conficting traffic in the route as well as airborn out of Fly Inn(I think) when we lost comms. I could hear the tower perfectly, but he could not hear me at all. I tried relaying through one of the other aircraft who could hear me, but it was not successful. It was rather stressful hearing the tower constantly calling me, trying to reply but not being heard. ( I now feel for the tower when people simply do not respond to the tower simply as poor airmanship.) Anyway, it was very comforting just to know that they cared for me and sounded worried that they did not know where I was.
On landing at home, I phoned the tower to let them know that I was home safely, but the tower had closed so I left a message.
Anyway, my advice for fresh solo pilots is to get your instructor to take you through controlled airspace as part of your training, secondly, plan your comms with the tower as part of your flight planning, and thirdly, phone the tower in advance to let them know that you are a microlight pilot and therefore a good oke, and also that you are more scared of them than they are of you.
During my training, I once sat on the back of a trike on a group fly in to FAGM. All I could think of was that there was no ways I could ever have flown this, as not only was it way to much for me to keep station in the group, but I could not follow any of the radio instructions.
Later on , once qualified, I was lucky enough to tag on the back of the experts like Rudi, Angelo, etc. and started to fly away as part of the group. This was the best learning experience ever. I often would suggest back to the instuctors that they should make it part of their instruction to lead a group of low hour solo pilots in their care into controlled air space, or through the Pinedene corridor, but it has not happened yet. As part of a group I got to familiarize myself with controlled airspace, although the thought of me doing the radio work for the group was still way worse than the midday thermals.
Then the day came that I had to fly the pinedene route solo, and I spent the previous night re reading the radio text book and making some notes for myself. I arrived at Baps tower and called for permission the enter the pinedene route only to find the tower unmanned, so I blindly called my way through patting myself on the back that I was so well prepared etc. when as I called clear of ultra city a booming voice came on the radio asking ME what the weather was like and if it was raining. It was Grand Central Tower and they had been monitoring my progress. I nearly kaked myself.
Anyway, I now had done the route many times solo with or without the tower and I have learned to accept the tower. I once had the tower warning me of conficting traffic in the route as well as airborn out of Fly Inn(I think) when we lost comms. I could hear the tower perfectly, but he could not hear me at all. I tried relaying through one of the other aircraft who could hear me, but it was not successful. It was rather stressful hearing the tower constantly calling me, trying to reply but not being heard. ( I now feel for the tower when people simply do not respond to the tower simply as poor airmanship.) Anyway, it was very comforting just to know that they cared for me and sounded worried that they did not know where I was.
On landing at home, I phoned the tower to let them know that I was home safely, but the tower had closed so I left a message.
Anyway, my advice for fresh solo pilots is to get your instructor to take you through controlled airspace as part of your training, secondly, plan your comms with the tower as part of your flight planning, and thirdly, phone the tower in advance to let them know that you are a microlight pilot and therefore a good oke, and also that you are more scared of them than they are of you.
Aquilla the Hun
Re: ATC's vs TRIKES -DO THEY THINK WE ARE MERE NUISANCES?
"East is east and west is west'. Huh, I would have called him as soon as I landed......... 
"Hope the weather is calm tomorrow !!"
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Asterix
Re: ATC's vs TRIKES -DO THEY THINK WE ARE MERE NUISANCES?
Ja. Thanx to all for comments, criticism, sharing etc. In retrospect, I may have been a bit sarcastic in my clip (Jack Daniels and Cigars) but hey, sarcasm (East is east and West is west) begets sarcasm..
Thanks Bugwar for posting your flight log tracker - I think it is clear from this that the request (report west of the field) was a bit confusing - and as for me at that stage, fighting turbulence and a low cloud base and windnoise and trying to decipher the guy in tower, was interpreted as report east - which made sense. (note from the tracklog that I was NEVER near his west, nor on a flightpath that would take me there.)
All said - I am glad I got this of my chest. From my side, I will in future phone ahead, and follow all the advise given above.
However - I will never "act" like a pilot.
What does this mean? It implies that I am not a pilot, and my paperwork disagrees. When I am airborne and calling, ATC can assume that I AM a pilot - I don't need to "act" like one to be treated like one!! 
Besides, remember, I DO come from beyond the boerewors curtain 
, so "I is talks the langwhich not very deliciously my broer..." Imagine the stuff ups once the new Taxi Airlines get operational.. 
Thanks Bugwar for posting your flight log tracker - I think it is clear from this that the request (report west of the field) was a bit confusing - and as for me at that stage, fighting turbulence and a low cloud base and windnoise and trying to decipher the guy in tower, was interpreted as report east - which made sense. (note from the tracklog that I was NEVER near his west, nor on a flightpath that would take me there.)
All said - I am glad I got this of my chest. From my side, I will in future phone ahead, and follow all the advise given above.
However - I will never "act" like a pilot.
What does this mean? It implies that I am not a pilot, and my paperwork disagrees. When I am airborne and calling, ATC can assume that I AM a pilot - I don't need to "act" like one to be treated like one!! Besides, remember, I DO come from beyond the boerewors curtain , so "I is talks the langwhich not very deliciously my broer..." Imagine the stuff ups once the new Taxi Airlines get operational.. 
Re: ATC's vs TRIKES -DO THEY THINK WE ARE MERE NUISANCES?
Hi Asterix - well done for taking your "unpleasant experience" and turning it into a learning for a lot of us
I once had a issue with Richards Bay ATC - they put me in conflict with other traffic (I know what the rules say - VFR traffic must ensure seperation etc). Anyway when I landed, I called the tower and he denied it, I waited till Monday morning and called the head ATC at the Bay and he invited me around to listen to the tapes. On my way there, I get a call from them telling me not to worry, the tape recorder was broken and no recording occurred!!
It was not my intetntion to make an issue of it, if only the original guy has either given me an explanation for the instruction or admitted to making a mistake.
Other than that, I have only had good experiences with all ATC
I once had a issue with Richards Bay ATC - they put me in conflict with other traffic (I know what the rules say - VFR traffic must ensure seperation etc). Anyway when I landed, I called the tower and he denied it, I waited till Monday morning and called the head ATC at the Bay and he invited me around to listen to the tapes. On my way there, I get a call from them telling me not to worry, the tape recorder was broken and no recording occurred!!
It was not my intetntion to make an issue of it, if only the original guy has either given me an explanation for the instruction or admitted to making a mistake.
Other than that, I have only had good experiences with all ATC
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Asterix
Re: ATC's vs TRIKES -DO THEY THINK WE ARE MERE NUISANCES?
Thanks Dobbs - and please everybody - I HAVE NO HATE FOR ATC's - I just FEAR them. I'm sure most of them are wonderful people - like the lady I encountered at FARB - patient with me, understanding that I am a recreational pilot with my only goal to route through her space as safely as possible for all involved. Boerewors accent and all.
As for "the sharing of my experience" - I'm sure a lot of people listen to me on the radio and they think - jeez - what a d@@s. I am a d@@s, first to admit.
But I am an audible d@@s, at least, notwithstanding my Afrikaner accent. Something else comes into play with all people on this dear earth though - ego. The problem is, ego takes on a special significance in aviation - it does not leave you feeling small after it has been shattered like in most other aspects of life. In aviation, it leaves you DEAD 
As for "the sharing of my experience" - I'm sure a lot of people listen to me on the radio and they think - jeez - what a d@@s. I am a d@@s, first to admit.
But I am an audible d@@s, at least, notwithstanding my Afrikaner accent. Something else comes into play with all people on this dear earth though - ego. The problem is, ego takes on a special significance in aviation - it does not leave you feeling small after it has been shattered like in most other aspects of life. In aviation, it leaves you DEAD -
Asterix
Re: ATC's vs TRIKES -DO THEY THINK WE ARE MERE NUISANCES?
No no no Demon - please - none of my comments about "egos" and "acting like a pilot" and my boere-english is aimed at you or anybody else on this forum!! It's just that I have been reading Johan Lottering's book quite intensively over the past few weeks - re-reading certain parts and thinking about it - so I am in quite a philosophical mood and doing introspection about General Aviation. The "ego" thing was in front of my mind as I loaded the clip at the start of my thread onto youtube - I knew I was sticking my neck out a mile - but I decided - "never mind my ego, everybody already knows that I'm a d@@s".If my thread here can inspire other people to be open about their own little embarrasments, without fear of their ego's being shot, then I will happily remain a d@@s with a lekker strong bekvelder (audible!!) accent.
Now, to relieve the tension, check out my clip as we flew from the Berg to Howick some hours before this whole ATC thingy crapped on my day!!
Hope you like ZZ TOP!!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkCFVBZUO2o
Re: ATC's vs TRIKES -DO THEY THINK WE ARE MERE NUISANCES?
Something I was told that the Pilot is the one who is in control, If you feel that the ATC is putting you in a position which will is dangerous or that you as PILOT feel you are not cumfortable with. This is the argument you will use at the CAA when they call you in. (Trust me there is a good chance they will) you state that 1.) you were informed the Tower was Unmaned (you have the Proof) 2.) when the person/atc in the tower responded they were in audible (Again you have proof) 3.) when the ATC told you to go on a specific route when clearly you were already on/past that point(GPS helps here) then again you have the perfect right to say to the tower "EISH Sorry Dude NOT going to HAPPEN" 
(You have all the poof and it is your word against theirs)
(You have all the poof and it is your word against theirs)Gavin van der Berg - ZS-WWF
“The genius controls the chaos”
One of the Proud Chain Gang Founding Members
“The genius controls the chaos”
One of the Proud Chain Gang Founding Members
Re: ATC's vs TRIKES -DO THEY THINK WE ARE MERE NUISANCES?
Gavin.Tailspin wrote:Something I was told that the Pilot is the one who is in control, If you feel that the ATC is putting you in a position which will is dangerous or that you as PILOT feel you are not cumfortable with. This is the argument you will use at the CAA when they call you in. (Trust me there is a good chance they will) you state that 1.) you were informed the Tower was Unmaned (you have the Proof) 2.) when the person/atc in the tower responded they were in audible (Again you have proof) 3.) when the ATC told you to go on a specific route when clearly you were already on/past that point(GPS helps here) then again you have the perfect right to say to the tower "EISH Sorry Dude NOT going to HAPPEN"
how do you produce the proof? I only hava a radio.
Vernon
Re: ATC's vs TRIKES -DO THEY THINK WE ARE MERE NUISANCES?
I think Gavin refers to the specific incident mentioned here where the recordings are available.vernon11 wrote: Gavin.
how do you produce the proof? I only hava a radio.
Vernon
This incident happened a long time ago and was resolved then. Asterix only mentioned it here for lessons learned.
Re: ATC's vs TRIKES -DO THEY THINK WE ARE MERE NUISANCES?
OKBugwar wrote:I think Gavin refers to the specific incident mentioned here where the recordings are available.vernon11 wrote: Gavin.
how do you produce the proof? I only hava a radio.
Vernon
This incident happened a long time ago and was resolved then. Asterix only mentioned it here for lessons learned.
Sorry then got the Cat by the Nuts - But it still stands if you feel ATC are putting you in a situation that is unsafe you can disagree with them and then state what exactly you are going to do.
At the end of the day it is your life on the Line. Not theirs.Gavin van der Berg - ZS-WWF
“The genius controls the chaos”
One of the Proud Chain Gang Founding Members
“The genius controls the chaos”
One of the Proud Chain Gang Founding Members
Re: ATC's vs TRIKES -DO THEY THINK WE ARE MERE NUISANCES?
I agree. I would rather be alive to go for a cup of tea at CAATailspin wrote:.. if you feel ATC are putting you in a situation that is unsafe you can disagree with them and then state what exactly you are going to do.
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