Part 24 : First issue to debate.

Discussion of all official legislative, legal, licencing and operating matters

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Postby lamercyfly » Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:39 pm

Oh, I forgot to mention that I had a meeting with CAA accident investigator last week, and they are impressed with the microlight stats...........well done guys..............and this with our current way of doing things.............which is exactly what we are asking to be re-instated :wink:
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Aircraft Maintenance

Postby drothman » Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:53 am

Well well well.....I wonder who did the maintenance on the 737 that lost it's engine at Cape Town yesterday?

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Postby Tobie » Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:10 pm

I definately vote for owner maintenance. As previously said I have a huge interest in my own safety and set very high standards to the maintenance performed by myself. I normally choose a quiet time, no cell phone and definately with no-one around when doing maintenance for the simple reason to eliminate any disturbance while busy that can cause one to loose focus at the task at hand. That is when you make mistakes or miss something whilst chatting away etc. So, no AP supervision, only inspection.

The hobby is not only the flying but also the technical aspect associated with it, I know my limits and will seek professional help beyond that, not to mention how often the workmanship from professionals are questionable.

Frankly I would not be comfortable flying without having a hand into performing my own microlight maintenance, wich in any event is far more regular and intence than it would be if everytime an AP need to be found and an appointment made to perform each task.
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Postby FAWGie » Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:21 am

DieselFan wrote:I've seen a plane get AP'd by the manfacturer and passed only to find a couple cracks here and there, broken shocks and couple wing concerns.
Was it a Savannah?.... :wink:
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Postby drothman » Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:05 pm

Hi Dave
Thanks for the input into Saturday mornings breakfast at ERMF. We can see that you have our best interest at heart and we support you all the way. And a great thanks to everyone that pithced up in the wind. There were lots of questions and lots of input. However I still have concerns. When I left I felt like we are still going nowhere, that Aeroclub/MISASA/CAA has already made up their minds and we are just whining because we did not respond in 2002 when the law was passed. I might be wrong (and sure hope for the sake of flying that I am) but it looks like we are to late. Also the feeling is that there might be conflict of interest involved........oops....did I say that?.... Lets think for a moment......why would I try my utmost best to stop something that will be of financial benefit to me? No I would not stop it! Lets face it......money talks. We would have to fork out more money to fly as my 300 hours are getting closer. The poor flight school has to replace the 582 cranks every 300 hours and thus the rate/hour to fly goes up. So the student has to pay more for instruction and so goes the whole snowball effect. Me as a recreational flyer must fork out more money (thats why we are complaining.....money talks) as my R per H has now gone up.

So then we must ask the question......why do we actualy still fly? Why did we start flying in the first place? Most of us had a dream when we were kids of flying a plane. My first experience was with my moms beach umbrella from the garage roof. That didnt work so well but for that half second in the air it was worth it. Unfortunately life happens and our dreams of becoming fighter pilots (in the old SA) or airline pilots faded in the reality world of earning a living. Then I was introduced to Microlighting by Avril and Eben Mocke. Suddenly dreams became a reality and with my limited budget I got myself a Windlass. Years go by, wings get upgraded and monies saved for that desired 582 upgrade. Not all of us can quickly write out a cheque for a new 582 nor a brand new Aquilla. But what we have is a dream come true. We take care of the thing that made our dream come true.
Those of us that are passionate about our sport learn everything there is to know about about our engine, wing, prop, etc. We download and study endless docs of the web about out favourite sport......we set up websites and post nice pics of us flying down a beach somewhere......the one that was a dream come true. And now we are trying to complicate and kill the sport. For what???? for the sake of safety or "Liability" or money. To kill the sport with rules and regs is not going to do the trick. It would rather encourage people to become dishonest. Why would I put down 2 hours of flying for this weekend if I can only put in 30mins. Hell my 582 could run for 5 years (I can even extend it to 10 and keep a seperate log book just to be on the safe side of 600 hours) instead of 3 years before I have to overall it. And lets face it....it is going to happen if it has not already happened yet. How many pilots has been flying without a valid ATF? Do you honestly think that this new airlaw will change it? I doubt. I think now is the time for all microlight pilots to put their differences asside and stand together so that we could make this sport as enjoyable and safe as possible. But now here comes the next obsticle........it feels like the governing body has let us, no let me rephrase, let me down. I only want to reflect here what I am feeling and not everyone else I have been speaking to. This is only my point of view. How nice would it be if the association I belong to would send me an SMS or email reminder to tell me that my flight medical is due for renewal or my ATF expires next month, could they perhaps put me in contact with an AP, or there is a circular out wrt. the Rotax I use on my plane, or there is a new airlaw coming out that would affect the way we fly, etc etc etc. I would be willing to pay my monies for something like that and I am sure that there are other pilots out there that feels the same.

My 10cents (zim) worth.

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Postby Barnstormer » Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:35 pm

Drothman

I feel you...

Spoke to Trevor Davies this morning. Thanked him for unknowingly starting a dream in the hearts of some young boys in the Drakensberg... It might not have been him flying, but certainly one of his creations.

Anyway, while I am emotional: I lost one of my friends whom I used to dream with some years ago. He flew microlights from the age of 17 and went on to become a PPL instructor, aiming at SAA. He lost his life in a certified aircraft, as a passenger...

I agree with you, these laws will not safe lives, in my opinion.
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Postby John Waterson » Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:04 am

Hi Fawgie

Please enlighten me.
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Postby mike2flyfar » Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:09 pm

DEAR DERIK

I APPRECIATE YOUR VIEWS BUT WITH RESPECT I WOULD LIKE TO RESPOND AND ENLIGHTEN YOU. AS YOU CAN IMAGINE I TAKE A LOT OF FLACK ... AS THE CHAIRMAN OF MISASA AND AS THE OWNER OF THE ROTAX DISTRIBUTORSHIP SO I AM USED TO IT - THAT SAID I AM THE FIRST TO ADMIT IF I HAVE LET THE SIDE DOWN OR SCREWED UP SO .... MY COMMENTS IN BOLD.

When I left I felt like we are still going nowhere, that Aeroclub/MISASA/CAA has already made up their minds and we are just whining because we did not respond in 2002 when the law was passed.

NOT TRUE AT ALL. I AM SORRY IF YOU ARE LEFT WITH THAT IMPRESSION. I WAS NOT PART OF THE WRITING UP OF PART 24 HOWEVER I AM THE ONE WHO - WITH OTHERS - WILL FIX THE IMMEDIATE PROBLEMS.

I might be wrong (and sure hope for the sake of flying that I am) but it looks like we are to late.

NEVER TOO LATE. MY OPTOMISTIC MIND JUST DOESN'T LET ME GO TO THERE.

Also the feeling is that there might be conflict of interest involved........oops....did I say that?.... Lets think for a moment......why would I try my utmost best to stop something that will be of financial benefit to me? No I would not stop it! Lets face it......money talks. We would have to fork out more money to fly as my 300 hours are getting closer. The poor flight school has to replace the 582 cranks every 300 hours and thus the rate/hour to fly goes up. So the student has to pay more for instruction and so goes the whole snowball effect. Me as a recreational flyer must fork out more money (thats why we are complaining.....money talks) as my R per H has now gone up.

I HAVE THIS THROWN AT ME OFTEN - BUT WHY NOT ASK THOSE WHO KNOW ME BEFORE MAKING REMARKS LIKE THAT ... I WORK TIRELESSLY TO TRY TO MAKE THINGS SAFER, BETTER, LESS EXPENSIVE AND MORE FREE FOR EVERYONE. I HAVE BEEN ON THE COMMITTEE GOING ON FOR 15 YEARS WITH NO BENEFIT TO MYSELF.
I MAKE A GOOD ENOUGH LIVING AND DO NOT NEED TO TRY TO FIND UNDERHANDED WAYS TO MAKE MORE MONEY. MY FOCUS IN LIFE IS DEFINITELY NOT MONEY - ASK AROUND, ASK THE STAFF HERE.
HAVING TO OVERHAUL YOUR ENGINE WHEN IT IS NOT NECESSARY IS AGAINST WHAT OUR SPORT IS ABOUT AND AGAINST WHY I AM HERE AND WHY I STILL FLY MICROLIGHTS.
I WILL WORK HARD TO FIX THINGS. USUALLY I DON'T TALK THAT MUCH BUT I GET THINGS DONE. WAIT AND SEE.
YOUR COMMENT IS COMPLETELY UNTRUE AND UNFAIR.

And now we are trying to complicate and kill the sport. For what???? for the sake of safety or "Liability" or money. To kill the sport with rules and regs is not going to do the trick.

THE ONWARD MARCH OF CIVILIZATION AND WITH IT MORE REGULATIONS IS THE CULPRIT.
AS AN EXAMPLE ... THE TRAFFIC - I WISH IT WAS LIKE IT WAS 10 YEARS AGO. BUT IT IS GOING TO JUST GET WORSE AND WORSE.
WE CAN TRY TO KEEP THE REGULATIONS IN CHECK AS BEST WE CAN ... BUT WE MAKE THE RULES FOR OURSELVES. YOU AND ME. THAT IS THE WAY IT IS. IT'S JUST LIFE, OUR WESTERN CULTURE.

How many pilots has been flying without a valid ATF?

LOTS

Do you honestly think that this new airlaw will change it? I doubt. I think now is the time for all microlight pilots to put their differences asside and stand together so that we could make this sport as enjoyable and safe as possible.

GOOD IDEA.

But now here comes the next obsticle........it feels like the governing body has let us, no let me rephrase, let me down.

YES OF COURSE. YOUR ASSOCIATION IS A RUN BY A TINY BAND OF PEOPLE WHO GIVE THEIR TIME FOR FREE AND TRY THEIR BEST TO MAKE THINGS GOOD AND FAIR. BUT WE ARE JUST 10. SO TELL ME DERIK, HAVE YOU DONE ANYTHING AT ALL FOR YOUR SPORT? HAVE YOU HELPED IN ANY WAY? WOULD YOU AT LEAST STEP UP TO THE PLATE AND SAY ... OK, THERE IS A PROBLEM, LET ME TAKE THE INITIATIVE AND NOT ONLY GATHER ALL THE INFORMATION THAT IS NEEDED, BUT DRAFT THE CHANGES, TAKE IT THOUGH THE LEGAL SYSTEM UNTIL IT IS IN THE REGULATIONS. IT IS NOT A BIG COMMITMENT - MAYBE ONLY 100 HOURS OF WORK OVER THE NEXT YEAR.

I only want to reflect here what I am feeling and not everyone else I have been speaking to. This is only my point of view. How nice would it be if the association I belong to would send me an SMS or email reminder to tell me that my flight medical is due for renewal or my ATF expires next month, could they perhaps put me in contact with an AP, or there is a circular out wrt. the Rotax I use on my plane, or there is a new airlaw coming out that would affect the way we fly, etc etc etc. I would be willing to pay my monies for something like that and I am sure that there are other pilots out there that feels the same.

WE NEED WORKERS. MONEY IS EASY TO COME BY. I HAVE A REALLY SERIOUS SUGGESTION FOR YOU: I WILL GET YOU THE DATABASE AND THE MONEY .... YOU DO WHAT YOU HAVE JUST SUGGESTED. YOU MAKE IT HAPPEN. HOWS ABOUT IT? WRITE TO ME PRIVATELY OR POST YOUR ANSWER HERE.

LAST THING: I HAVE A FEW THINGS TO OVERSEE / ACCOMPLISH AND THEN I WILL BE STEPPING DOWN AS THE MISASA CHAIRMAN SO IF YOU KNOW OF ANYONE WHO WOULD LIKE TO TAKE OVER PLEASE LET ME KNOW.

(THINGS STILL TO DO:
FIX UP PART 24 - MAINTENANCE ISSUES
IMPLEMENTATION OF PART 62
ARO APPROVAL
NEW WEB SITE
IMPROVE COMMUNICATION WITH MEMBERS
GET A COMMITTEE GOING ON THE 2011 WORLDS BID)

THANKS
MIKE BLYTH
CHAIRMAN OF MISASA FOR MY SINS
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Postby Barnstormer » Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:47 pm

mike2flyfar wrote:I WILL GET YOU THE DATABASE
Hi Mike!

In what form is that database? Excel, SQL?

I can talk to one of our programmers and find out what the possibilities are. I know that e-mail would be easier than sms because of costs etc.

PM me, or rawstorne at itmaster.co .za

:)
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Postby mike2flyfar » Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:05 pm

OK great, I'll write to you directly.

Thanks
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Postby cobra » Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:25 pm

I promised myself not to get sucked into the regs debate but after reading ....
drothman wrote: Hi Dave

Thanks for the input into Saturday mornings breakfast at ERMF. ...................... ($$) ($$) ($$) :evil: :twisted:


Thanks Mike and David for taking the time on Saturday.

Although everyone is unhappy with the current situation and financial impact it will have on owners, I believe the case is with Rotax Austria - the only answer is to change the maintenance schedule :?:

Face it dortman, your unhappiness is with the manufacturer ROTAX NOT with MISASA or the SA ROTAX Service Centre, never mind who the owner is. Any suggestion to resolve this problem if you had the Rotax SA Agency :wink: I’m sure your answer would have been a carbon copy of what Mike said, "the schedule states overhaul (300h) your 582 at an approved service centre according to the ROTAX schedule" Would you have changed it ...and be liable ?

All CAA is asking us to do is to service the engine according to manufacturer’s schedules,:idea: if you unhappy ask the manufacturer’s to change the maintenance manual and compulsory new parts replacement eg Crank at 300h. Convincing CAA to overlook/change this issue will be difficult.

I do not have the answers, all I know, what you are insinuating is uncalled for -xX By the way, do you have valid ATF :wink:

I hope Mike-David-CAA will see eye-to-eye on this one and resolve it in the interest of the sport.

Best of luck to Misasa+David – Regards Sias
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Postby mike2flyfar » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:01 am

Thanks Sias. Rawstorne and I are in touch and he has agreed to help so that is really great.

We have a meeting tonight (hosted by the EAA) with the heads of the affected sections of the Aero Club and representatives of the CAA about fixing what is not working in Part 24 and other Parts too.

I will give you a report back about the progress in a few days after we have things finalised and I have some positive answers for you.

Different sections have different views and requirements but
This is what I will push for:
1. Owners of Experimentals/homebuilds, Gyros, Light Sport Aeroplanes, Conventionally controlled microlights and Trikes will be able to do their own maintenance and repairs.
2. The maintenance manuals can be amended by the aircraft manufacturer to reflect a more reasonable maintenence and overhaul schedule if so desired. (This will take some work but after investigation I believe it is possible). Different manufacturers have different views on the maintenance/overhaul issue - so this solves the problem.

Cheers
M
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Part24

Postby drothman » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:57 am

Hi Cobra

First of all...I am not frustrated by Rotax or at Rotax or at anyone working at Rotax and my issue is not with them. I just recently bought a new 582 from them and yes my ATF is valid and current. My frustration is with a system that has failed us...the recreational flyer. We feel let down by the powers be......and I think the main failure was communication. Communication between MISASA/AEROCLUB and us the flyers. I think if a pole be set up to ask each and every flyer out there if they knew anything about these new laws coming in to play you before last month you will be shocked. I have been flying trikes now for almost 10 years and have been an active member of MISASA till recently and not once have I recieved a letter or email or anything telling me about the new law. Unless I have been left in the dark and communications did not get through to me, because then it would have been my own fault that I was not aware of these new laws. I have spoken to another flight school owner yesterday and not even they knew about it. Again things were not communicated to us. Now suddenly everyone comes alive and starts to join the party, but the feeling that I got from Saturday's breakfast was that it was to late. Just think for a moment how things would bave been if this forum or the communication inside it was in place in 2002 when the apparent law was made and all aviators were made awareif it. It would have been a completely diffrent story today.
Hopefully at tonights CAA meeting Dave an Mike can convince the powers be not to go ahead with enforcing the law come Jan 1st 2008 and put the ammendments in.
I found this insert on Avcoms site
The thing to do now is something that would appear to be very unfamiliar to General Aviation...."stand together and consolidate a position!" Get Aeroclub to represent the case. I am sometimes amazed at the amount of infighting I am witnessing in the GA subsectors. Fact is, Aeroclub is your only legally recognised representative despite overtures by various chapters to refuse to deal with Aeroclub management and wanting to talk to CAA directly. This problem is serious, its busy damaging GA and you are the only people who can do something about it.
This is what we need to do now..."Stand together". Lets get an active vote/petition/email on this and sent it to whoever we know that flies and see how much signatures we can get to help support our case. Send me email addresses and I will send out a mass mail wrt this issue if that will help.

My 10c worth
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Postby mike2flyfar » Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:25 am

Hi Derik

You are right - we can certainly do some work on communicating with members. We are working on improving the situation.
By the way do you know about the new pilot licence regulations which will come into effect early next year?

Cheers
M
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Postby ICEMAN » Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:48 pm

Purely out of curiosity- what would the maintanance schedule/ rules/ regs etc be for a motor that was not originally intended for aviation purposes, eg VW motors....... what would CAA use a a benchmark for these motors.......... now would be the time for any manufacturer to enter the market that has a more "lenient" maintanence schedule, or none at all...... how would the CAA police that one???........ if the current motors that we use become highly expensive and pedantic to own and operate in terms of maintanance then perhaps they should change their schedule wording or stand aside for another brand to take the market of experimental and recreational grassroots flying......... just a thought.....

Perhaps i buy me a little something with a VW motor from next year... or a BMW motorcycle motor.......

I still cant get my head around the fact that the current products are not "tested for aviation and prone to stop at anytime"..... why would i bother servicing pedantically every 300hrs if thats all i get for it.. is the problem here with me???....... :roll:
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