) That said, it seems like a good option to look at importing a used gyro from the US or Australia or even a new kit. Would I have any problems finding a test pilot for the newly built kit and just how easy would it be to get an ATF and registration? I'm leaning towards the butterfly and wondered if there are any of these currently in SA?Any Butterfly gyros in SA?
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Spindoctor
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Any Butterfly gyros in SA?
The prices of Factory Gyros seem pretty steep (at least to me) in South Africa in comparison with what you can buy aerie wise for the same money. You can buy any number of kit aircraft or older factory made aeries with the money you'd have to fork over for a MAGNI/ELA/MT I wonder why the Gyros are so expensive in comparison to their fixed wing cousins. (Ok sure, pure fun costs more ) That said, it seems like a good option to look at importing a used gyro from the US or Australia or even a new kit. Would I have any problems finding a test pilot for the newly built kit and just how easy would it be to get an ATF and registration? I'm leaning towards the butterfly and wondered if there are any of these currently in SA?
) That said, it seems like a good option to look at importing a used gyro from the US or Australia or even a new kit. Would I have any problems finding a test pilot for the newly built kit and just how easy would it be to get an ATF and registration? I'm leaning towards the butterfly and wondered if there are any of these currently in SA?
1. Rotax 912 / 914 engine = $$$$$$ !The prices of Factory Gyros seem pretty steep (at least to me) in South Africa in comparison with what you can buy aerie wise for the same money. You can buy any number of kit aircraft or older factory made aeries with the money you'd have to fork over for a MAGNI/ELA/MT I wonder why the Gyros are so expensive in comparison to their fixed wing cousins
2. Factory built versus kit = additional (European!) labour $$$ !
3. Import / shipping costs versus local production & assembly. $$
Still, you raise a good question!
re
I agree with learjet.
The golden Butterfly will cost you 300 k with a Subaru engine in it.
My concern about the butterfly is its rotor and rotor head. Noting is mention on the website on the type of rotor composite,alu, combination,cord etc.
Some rotor heads also have an under sling problem. This means that you will get severe stick shake if you crank up the G’s
The golden Butterfly will cost you 300 k with a Subaru engine in it.
My concern about the butterfly is its rotor and rotor head. Noting is mention on the website on the type of rotor composite,alu, combination,cord etc.
Some rotor heads also have an under sling problem. This means that you will get severe stick shake if you crank up the G’s
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Vertical Tango
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1. Rotax 912 / 914 engine = $$$$$$ !
Hi Spindoctor,
The Subaru engine is under-estimated. It runs very smoothly on the RAF and has by far less vibrations than the 914. There is unfortunately a culture in SA that an automotive engine cannot run in a aircraft, and the more you pay the better it must be. Well it is just a matter of going into few workshops to see for yourself
If people knew that the Subaru engine was in fact designed for aircrafts and due to embargos the Japanese were not allowed to sell it to the Americans. Then they designed a car around it and it tops most Rallye Championships running FLAT-OUT !
The 914 is a also a great engine. But I seem to accept more a cracked engine casing in a R60,000 engine than a R220,000 one. For those who sign cheques as a hobby, this is not an issue.
Why gyros use the 914 is quite simple. It is a fact that Power to Weight ratio, the 914 is ahead. The designer of such gyro resolves his design headache of keeping it light by forcing on the customer a 914. Gyros are power hungry.
On the otherhand, how important is it to climb at 1500 feet / min ? If you were climbing instead at 600 feet / min, you would still be very safe. Try to take-off in a Cessna 172 on the highveld with only 2 pax. If you get 200 feet/min you are lucky. Have they withdrawn the 172s off the air because of that ? Definitely not. It is up to the pilot to train and understand the limits of the machine and not put himself in a dangerous curve. Even at 1500 feet/min, you will still have accidents because the pilot counts on that power to get out of trouble.
Only few thoughts...
Good luck in your choice.
The Subaru engine is under-estimated. It runs very smoothly on the RAF and has by far less vibrations than the 914. There is unfortunately a culture in SA that an automotive engine cannot run in a aircraft, and the more you pay the better it must be. Well it is just a matter of going into few workshops to see for yourself
If people knew that the Subaru engine was in fact designed for aircrafts and due to embargos the Japanese were not allowed to sell it to the Americans. Then they designed a car around it and it tops most Rallye Championships running FLAT-OUT !
The 914 is a also a great engine. But I seem to accept more a cracked engine casing in a R60,000 engine than a R220,000 one. For those who sign cheques as a hobby, this is not an issue.
Why gyros use the 914 is quite simple. It is a fact that Power to Weight ratio, the 914 is ahead. The designer of such gyro resolves his design headache of keeping it light by forcing on the customer a 914. Gyros are power hungry.
On the otherhand, how important is it to climb at 1500 feet / min ? If you were climbing instead at 600 feet / min, you would still be very safe. Try to take-off in a Cessna 172 on the highveld with only 2 pax. If you get 200 feet/min you are lucky. Have they withdrawn the 172s off the air because of that ? Definitely not. It is up to the pilot to train and understand the limits of the machine and not put himself in a dangerous curve. Even at 1500 feet/min, you will still have accidents because the pilot counts on that power to get out of trouble.
Only few thoughts...
Good luck in your choice.
Flying is like dancing, it is a love affair between the pilot and his aircraft
If it's zero houred then surely no problem? Otherwise we'd have many unsafe 50x's...?Learjet wrote:Please correct me if I'm wrong here... but I'm under the impression that the Subaru's used in some of the gyros makes that use them aren't "out the box" but are rebuilt / refurbished engines? Hence the big price differential?
To my knowledge the Scooby engines are great just a tad heavy at 100kg for the 1.8l and fuel is not the best but the price is hard to beat and so are their reliability.
The 40 hour proving time also helps to dispel any mistakes done during the rebuild and mostly the companies doing the actual rebuilds do it as their main business and sell them off to engine importers or aircraft manufacturers as it's not the latter's primary focus.
I don't get you wrongLearjet wrote:Thanks Dieselfan
Don't get me wrong - I'm not knocking the Soobs - by all acounts they're great engines. I'm just trying to figure out why the big price difference.I guess "new" versus "used" (irrespective of reliability /zero houred etc) goes some way to explaining the price gap?
nothing wrong with an objective and valid question!Very hard to find out the REAL reason for the price gap, I don't think it's the new / used, as I explained a long time ago I can get a VW 1.9TDi engine NEW for around 30k and a GTi for half
. The most common reason given is mass production. I think it's more along the lines of lack of true competition as the Auto Conversions are seen as merely taking a car engine and slapping it onto a plane whereas ignorance is bliss! There's loads more involved and most auto-aero conversions are very well thought out with redundant wiring, pumps etc.There's a cool but outdated book on Amazon called "Converting car engines for aviation" or something like that
re
If Subaru engines was an alternative why did Sycamore go back to Rotax 914 ?
VAN from the RV’s had the following to say about automobile conversion.
“Rather take the money and convert it into a second hand aircraft engineâ€Â
VAN from the RV’s had the following to say about automobile conversion.
“Rather take the money and convert it into a second hand aircraft engineâ€Â
The scooby's are heavy
NORMALLY the advantage of a heavier engine is offset by it's better fuel consumption as if both aircraft had 3 hour endurances their take off weight would be the same. To my knowledge the Subaru doesn't have this advantage
Yes they come is various hp ranges from 130-160hp but at reef altitudes thats about 100hp and given it's weight, the power / weight ratio is not so great then. I've heard people say and from an existing Sycamore pilot that his takeoff is a bit longer than other gyros - I don't know. BUT if that were true perhaps thats WHY they went back to 914, with the Turbo it will maintain it's great power to weight ratio.
Reliability aside or being equal - only pro on Paper, I can see with the Scooby, is price.
I hate Steroetyping but as Gyro's are so pricey...
I would say that most Gyro boys have got bucks and in that case they don't want to fiddle and want the best money can buy - VT's comment could be apt here.
As is the case with people with bucks, they don't buy a Porche for it's ecofriendly habits.
NORMALLY the advantage of a heavier engine is offset by it's better fuel consumption as if both aircraft had 3 hour endurances their take off weight would be the same. To my knowledge the Subaru doesn't have this advantage
Yes they come is various hp ranges from 130-160hp but at reef altitudes thats about 100hp and given it's weight, the power / weight ratio is not so great then. I've heard people say and from an existing Sycamore pilot that his takeoff is a bit longer than other gyros - I don't know. BUT if that were true perhaps thats WHY they went back to 914, with the Turbo it will maintain it's great power to weight ratio.
Reliability aside or being equal - only pro on Paper, I can see with the Scooby, is price.
I hate Steroetyping but as Gyro's are so pricey...
I would say that most Gyro boys have got bucks and in that case they don't want to fiddle and want the best money can buy - VT's comment could be apt here.
As is the case with people with bucks, they don't buy a Porche for it's ecofriendly habits.
re
Hi Diesel
I also have a problem with the high gyro prices.
But the Subaru engine is not the solution if the gyro was not design for this engine from the beginning.
The Sycamore has the potential to become an affordable well performing Gyro.
It is developed in South Africa – Rand based.
Same design as Magni ,Ela and MT-03
The problem is its weight
The Gyro is basically over designed
Quoted from them “the rotor on the new Eagle and Blade. As is was designed to carry gyros of 850 kgâ€Â
“The hub has been tested to 60 tonsâ€Â
The Mauw of the Sycamore is 590 kg.
Why this over design? And this is only on the Rotor and hub.
It makes the Gyro a lot heavier and you need to increase the strength of the chassis and this will increase the weight again.
Control rods also have to be stronger again more weight.
If sycamore can reduce the weight to the gyro with a Subaru engine to the current weight of the gyro with a 914 engine, you will have a winner.
I also have a problem with the high gyro prices.
But the Subaru engine is not the solution if the gyro was not design for this engine from the beginning.
The Sycamore has the potential to become an affordable well performing Gyro.
It is developed in South Africa – Rand based.
Same design as Magni ,Ela and MT-03
The problem is its weight
The Gyro is basically over designed
Quoted from them “the rotor on the new Eagle and Blade. As is was designed to carry gyros of 850 kgâ€Â
“The hub has been tested to 60 tonsâ€Â
The Mauw of the Sycamore is 590 kg.
Why this over design? And this is only on the Rotor and hub.
It makes the Gyro a lot heavier and you need to increase the strength of the chassis and this will increase the weight again.
Control rods also have to be stronger again more weight.
If sycamore can reduce the weight to the gyro with a Subaru engine to the current weight of the gyro with a 914 engine, you will have a winner.
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Spindoctor
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Can someone kindly enlighten me as to why perhaps aviation engines OTHER than Rotax have not been used. Can a Jabiru engine not be used? or is Lycoming and Continental too expensive? I ask this because if you look at the current extraordinary high relative price of Gyros all seem to have either the non aviation Subaru or the Rotax and not much else.
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Low Level
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Spindoctor wrote
All the bells and whistles add weight and cost - weight and altitude as being mentioned, makes the gyro power hungry, therefore a heavier more powerful and EXPENSIVE engine.
Not shooting anything down, but some facts.
Looking at the butterfly, and 90 % of gyros in USA, - no body, small tail, no prerotator, no trim, one seater, basic instruments, light under carriage (reduced weight) - very light and therefore can fly with a 582 and a 24 ft rotor - much more wind in the hair kinda like trike flying - cost effective and fun.
If one takes any of the other gyros and strip it down, including a smaller engine, I'm pretty sure 100 kg can be shed, and you'll have a pretty cool, cheap gyro.
Spindoctor wrote
Very expensive, and power to weight compared to Rotax sucks.
O-320 Lycoming engine - 140 hp - 120 kg - rebuilt $ 25 000 - new $ 35 000, then it is an aspirated engine that doesn't deliver 140 hp at altitude
- stick it in a fix wing and you add a grand to the cost of the plane.
Exactly half of a gyros cost is engine and prop.
My 2c: The problem is, the gyros under discussion, are the "Mercedes Benz" gyros being imported, with all the bells and whistles.The prices of Factory Gyros seem pretty steep (at least to me) in South Africa
All the bells and whistles add weight and cost - weight and altitude as being mentioned, makes the gyro power hungry, therefore a heavier more powerful and EXPENSIVE engine.Not shooting anything down, but some facts.
Looking at the butterfly, and 90 % of gyros in USA, - no body, small tail, no prerotator, no trim, one seater, basic instruments, light under carriage (reduced weight) - very light and therefore can fly with a 582 and a 24 ft rotor - much more wind in the hair kinda like trike flying - cost effective and fun.
If one takes any of the other gyros and strip it down, including a smaller engine, I'm pretty sure 100 kg can be shed, and you'll have a pretty cool, cheap gyro.
Spindoctor wrote
Had the same question and my homework revealed the following:Can a Jabiru engine not be used? or is Lycoming and Continental too expensive?
Very expensive, and power to weight compared to Rotax sucks.
O-320 Lycoming engine - 140 hp - 120 kg - rebuilt $ 25 000 - new $ 35 000, then it is an aspirated engine that doesn't deliver 140 hp at altitude
Bloody 914 costI wonder why the Gyros are so expensive in comparison to their fixed wing cousins.
- stick it in a fix wing and you add a grand to the cost of the plane. Exactly half of a gyros cost is engine and prop.
Happiness is: Wanting what you have.
ZU-CFW
My soul called, and it wants it's life back. Only one thing to do. Let's fly.
ZU-CFW
My soul called, and it wants it's life back. Only one thing to do. Let's fly.
Don't think there are any butterflies out there, if so they wont be flying legaly, since in america if you can make a brick fly they will gladly help.
But in South Africa the rules stated below needs to be met before TYPE CERTIFICATION will be given to such an applicant and before a build no. will be issued, getting anything flying from the good U.S.A will take a dedicated team from the factory in the states and a persistant owner here in S.A.
gyrocopter and as stated in the SA-CATS-NTCA the design loads needs to meet the requirements of BCAR section S and of FAR 27 subpart C. how these loads criteria have been met needs to be shown by flight test, analysis etc.
But in South Africa the rules stated below needs to be met before TYPE CERTIFICATION will be given to such an applicant and before a build no. will be issued, getting anything flying from the good U.S.A will take a dedicated team from the factory in the states and a persistant owner here in S.A.
gyrocopter and as stated in the SA-CATS-NTCA the design loads needs to meet the requirements of BCAR section S and of FAR 27 subpart C. how these loads criteria have been met needs to be shown by flight test, analysis etc.
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