SAGPA

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Re: SAGPA

Postby Vertical Tango » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:22 am

Hi Condor,

Thank you for answering in english. We are all stressed when not communicating in our home language. Shall I answer in french ? To understand eachother in this wonderful country, we ALL have to accept to communicate in the "business" official language, whatever effort it takes.
You have joined the SAGPA committee sometimes in the past and can be commended for that as it is far more than most others who do, me included.
I have no problem with your point 1.
In point 2, regarding ATF and GPL,there is something basic that you are overlooking. You are assuming a lot of things here and going on the wrong track. There are many players involved, to name them : CAA, RAASA, SAGPA and the client (myself in this instance).
It starts with the fact that I have gripes with SAGPA and its representatives (we can cover the many reasons separately) and I investigate in Dec 2012 (time for membership renewal) if I can give my membership money to a better cause that would fulfil my needs, while still remaining a good standing pilot (who never had any mishap in 33 years of flying) and be legal. If the authorities (and you are looking at the wrong ones here) would have told me : "Sir, there is no way you will get your ATF unless you belong to SAGPA", then I would not jeopardise my flying simply to save R250 in membership, and spend more in another affiliation. Who in his right mind would do that ? I would still be a member of SAGPA to get my documents the legal way and ignore SAGPA for the rest of the year. Unfortunately for you, I have been guided by the correct authorities and followed their advice.
So now when you say
I was told this is investigated and reported at a high level. So enjoy while it last.....
, it is not to take lightly. If your intentions are to make me scared, well think again. Who are you investigating here ? SAGPA ? CAA ? RAASA ? or are assuming that I bribed someone to have illegal documents ? If you are trying to make fun of me and use me as an example, I hope that you will have the guts to reveal in this puplic forum the findings of your investigation, and let the correct head roll. The fact remains that I have been issued with an ATF and a GPL in good standing.
On your point 3, I would have loved to join your committee, for this I will have to study the language for at least 5 years before we could communicate. And you are not talking on behalf of the other committee members who cannot stand me. So we will leave this one out for the moment.
What happens next year ? I might be forced to join SAGPA again to remain legal, as some might be spiteful that I have dared to do my own thing without their "control" or request some "business protection". Well so be it, and it will simply re-enforce my sentiments.
Thank you for your effort in trying to get things right, your comms in english is appreciated. I beg you to open your eyes and check again.
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Re: SAGPA

Postby Condor » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:46 am

VT, Please read the quote you inserted again.

I was TOLD.....

I am not insinuating any thread to anyone, just stating the remarks made to me during conversations when we submitted the MOP.

I am not involved in any investigation and never was, so no intention to scare anybody.

The fact that ATF are still issued by CAA for NTCA is and will always be wrong, as this function is subcontracted to RAASA.

No more or less meant than this.
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Re: SAGPA

Postby mak » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:32 pm

Jean-Pierre
I am sorry to see that you feel this way about SAGPA and that you feel so strongly towards SAGPA and it’s committee members.
You state that some committee members don’t like you and from everyone that posted it is only myself that is on the committee, so therefor I assume that you think I don’t like you and I can assure you that that is not the case, quite the contrary.
Just be aware that you don’t take everything that is posted on this forum as being the view of SAGPA or it’s committee, it is not. This is an open forum where SAGPA members or mostly non-members can express their opinion and just because some post in Afrikaans, you blame SAGPA and the committee. Not fair. This is not a SAGPA site, it is an open forum, where you can post in French if you want to and no one can stop you.
As you are well aware SAGPA consist of a lot of members and as in any association, church or club, there will always be “groupies” as you call it. Even though everyone is there for the same reason, you will always find people with the same interest, with the same age children, supporting the same rugby team, etc creating social groups within the bigger structure. You don’t blame the church or pastor or political party and its leader if there are social groups within the church or party. Then how can you blame SAGPA or the committee for this. It’s best you find a group that you feel comfortable with and join them. I know you found a group that you fit in with outside the gyro community and I for one is sorry that you are not flying with us anymore, but happy that you found a place where you feel comfortable.
Regarding your remarks re the investigation, I think you completely misunderstood what Condor said. No one is investigating anyone.
SAGPA was investigating a new system, not persons and we have now proposed a new system to Aeroclub re SAGPA membership and will await their committee’s feedback. The ATF will still be coupled to your Aeroclub membership, but your licence renewal will be coupled to your SAGPA membership and your licence will not be renewed unless you are a paid up member of SAGPA. Like I said, just a proposal to Aeroclub, we will see what come back. A penalty system for late payment, after February, has also been proposed.

Scary Pilot
I think the reason that we don’t have young AP’s in our system is three fold:
1) It is unfortunately not feasible at this stage to do it as a full time job. There are currently +- 200 active gyro’s in SA flying an average of 50 hours per year. That is the cost of one major service and one ATF inspection per year, let say R 5 000-00 per year x 200 gyros = R 1m of revenue per year. Divide this by 6 AP’s, even though there is a lot more, then you get to an average income of R 14 000-00 per AP per month. Not the sort of salary income that a young person see himself earning, especially not associated with the stress of having other peoples life in your hands.
2) The young people of today don’t want to work with their hands, or be seen as a tradesman. I don’t know if it is just in SA or a worldwide trend.
3) I don’t believe there is a proper training program for this as until recently certain people still believed you can only become an AP by building your own plane and that AP’s is not a commercial activity. Which young person today has the money to build a plane to become an AP and then to earn R 14 000-00 per month.

Your statement:
fransstrydom wrote:we are trying to passify CAA by trying to prove that we can regulate ourselfs by providing a list of required items.This absurdity results in us carrying things on board not because we may need it in an emergency,but to conform to CAA.
can’t be further from the truth. SAGPA is trying to keep CAA from over regulating us. Do you rather want a CAA inspector, that states in an accident report that the gyro stalled, to tell you what to carry on board your gyro rather than a list compiled by someone with over 5000 gyro hours. I honestly don’t understand what you have against self regulation.
But, you must also note that part of SAGPA’s vision and mission is to promote safety within the gyro fraternity. We are not going to abandon all on board paperwork just because you are too lazy to remove it before you hose down your gyro and therefor think it is a stupid idea.
Just remember, everyone making these regulations or proposals are enthusiastic gyro pilots themselves and obviously also need to adhere to all these rules. Do you really think we will shoot ourselves in the foot by proposing stupid over regulations just for the sake of it.
You asked the other day about SAGPA’s missions and vision, it is listed below as taken from the SAGPA website.
Vision
The South African Gyro Pilots Association serves as the recognised voice of Gyrocopter Aviation in South Africa through leadership, collaboration and unity in the promotion of safety in the sport of Gyrocopter Aviation in South Africa.

Mission
SAGPA is dedicated to being the catalyst for the sport of Gyrocopter aviation and growth in South Africa. In fulfilling this mission we will value, support and be constructively responsive to the needs of the Gyrocopter Piloting community through

- Advocacy (to protect and promote an asset of interest) - Safety, through Education and Training
- Compliance and Sustainability through the establishment of standards
- Innovation
- Recognition of our Heritage
SAGPA represents gyroplane pilots and enthusiasts in Southern Africa. We share the passion and pleasure of flying one of the most remarkable planes ever conceived.
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Re: SAGPA

Postby fransstrydom » Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:40 pm

Why would some people prefer to get their ATF from CAA for ntca?Is their some benefit?
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Re: SAGPA

Postby fransstrydom » Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:46 pm

mak wrote:Jean-Pierre
I am sorry to see that you feel this way about SAGPA and that you feel so strongly towards SAGPA and it’s committee members.
You state that some committee members don’t like you and from everyone that posted it is only myself that is on the committee, so therefor I assume that you think I don’t like you and I can assure you that that is not the case, quite the contrary.
Just be aware that you don’t take everything that is posted on this forum as being the view of SAGPA or it’s committee, it is not. This is an open forum where SAGPA members or mostly non-members can express their opinion and just because some post in Afrikaans, you blame SAGPA and the committee. Not fair. This is not a SAGPA site, it is an open forum, where you can post in French if you want to and no one can stop you.
As you are well aware SAGPA consist of a lot of members and as in any association, church or club, there will always be “groupies” as you call it. Even though everyone is there for the same reason, you will always find people with the same interest, with the same age children, supporting the same rugby team, etc creating social groups within the bigger structure. You don’t blame the church or pastor or political party and its leader if there are social groups within the church or party. Then how can you blame SAGPA or the committee for this. It’s best you find a group that you feel comfortable with and join them. I know you found a group that you fit in with outside the gyro community and I for one is sorry that you are not flying with us anymore, but happy that you found a place where you feel comfortable.
Regarding your remarks re the investigation, I think you completely misunderstood what Condor said. No one is investigating anyone.
SAGPA was investigating a new system, not persons and we have now proposed a new system to Aeroclub re SAGPA membership and will await their committee’s feedback. The ATF will still be coupled to your Aeroclub membership, but your licence renewal will be coupled to your SAGPA membership and your licence will not be renewed unless you are a paid up member of SAGPA. Like I said, just a proposal to Aeroclub, we will see what come back. A penalty system for late payment, after February, has also been proposed.

Scary Pilot
I think the reason that we don’t have young AP’s in our system is three fold:
1) It is unfortunately not feasible at this stage to do it as a full time job. There are currently +- 200 active gyro’s in SA flying an average of 50 hours per year. That is the cost of one major service and one ATF inspection per year, let say R 5 000-00 per year x 200 gyros = R 1m of revenue per year. Divide this by 6 AP’s, even though there is a lot more, then you get to an average income of R 14 000-00 per AP per month. Not the sort of salary income that a young person see himself earning, especially not associated with the stress of having other peoples life in your hands.
2) The young people of today don’t want to work with their hands, or be seen as a tradesman. I don’t know if it is just in SA or a worldwide trend.
3) I don’t believe there is a proper training program for this as until recently certain people still believed you can only become an AP by building your own plane and that AP’s is not a commercial activity. Which young person today has the money to build a plane to become an AP and then to earn R 14 000-00 per month.

Your statement:
fransstrydom wrote:we are trying to passify CAA by trying to prove that we can regulate ourselfs by providing a list of required items.This absurdity results in us carrying things on board not because we may need it in an emergency,but to conform to CAA.
can’t be further from the truth. SAGPA is trying to keep CAA from over regulating us. Do you rather want a CAA inspector, that states in an accident report that the gyro stalled, to tell you what to carry on board your gyro rather than a list compiled by someone with over 5000 gyro hours. I honestly don’t understand what you have against self regulation.
But, you must also note that part of SAGPA’s vision and mission is to promote safety within the gyro fraternity. We are not going to abandon all on board paperwork just because you are too lazy to remove it before you hose down your gyro and therefor think it is a stupid idea.
Just remember, everyone making these regulations or proposals are enthusiastic gyro pilots themselves and obviously also need to adhere to all these rules. Do you really think we will shoot ourselves in the foot by proposing stupid over regulations just for the sake of it.
You asked the other day about SAGPA’s missions and vision, it is listed below as taken from the SAGPA website.
Vision
The South African Gyro Pilots Association serves as the recognised voice of Gyrocopter Aviation in South Africa through leadership, collaboration and unity in the promotion of safety in the sport of Gyrocopter Aviation in South Africa.

Mission
SAGPA is dedicated to being the catalyst for the sport of Gyrocopter aviation and growth in South Africa. In fulfilling this mission we will value, support and be constructively responsive to the needs of the Gyrocopter Piloting community through

- Advocacy (to protect and promote an asset of interest) - Safety, through Education and Training
- Compliance and Sustainability through the establishment of standards
- Innovation
- Recognition of our Heritage
SAGPA represents gyroplane pilots and enthusiasts in Southern Africa. We share the passion and pleasure of flying one of the most remarkable planes ever conceived.
You watch your tone with me young man,calling me lazy.I concur with your theory of why we dont attract young engineers.Question is,what do we do about it.Someone is bound to come up with a brilliant suggestion.
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Re: SAGPA

Postby fransstrydom » Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:24 pm

The following question is for Mak.If SAGPA is obliged to supply a list for the ramp inspections,why not make it a functional list.SCRAP:
REGISTRATION DOCUMENT
RADIO STATION LICENSE
MASS & BALANCE
MAP 1500000
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Re: SAGPA

Postby THI » Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:17 pm

fransstrydom wrote:The following question is for Mak.If SAGPA is obliged to supply a list for the ramp inspections,why not make it a functional list.SCRAP: REGISTRATION DOCUMENT RADIO STATION LICENSE MASS & BALANCE MAP 1500000 scary pilot


Frans, I'm not trying to answer, I just thinking out loud.

REGISTRATION - to make sure the aircraft is not stolen? If not, how can an official check this?

RADIO STATION LICENSE - it works the same as your medical. The papers must be part of the ramp inspection. I support this.

MASS & BALANCE - don't understand why this must be part of the ramp. Maybe so the official knows in which category the aircraft falls :lol: Then again...only one category for gyros...

Map - I tend to agree. Who flies with maps these days? Never mind opening a map in an open cockpit :lol:

I speaking in my personal capacity.

Maybe I need a disclaimer? :lol:
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Re: SAGPA

Postby fransstrydom » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:55 am

Thinus,as far as the registration document goes,what is the ramp inspector going to do about it if the aircraft is stolen?He might get killed.The radio station licence is a problem of ICASA.Let them do there own dirty work.What are you going to do with a fire extinguisher or a first aid kit in a gyro,open or closed?Common sense went out the back door.
People are scared to air their views,is it because big brother is watching?Is this how far we went downhill?Being a rebel i will take the brunt,not scared of CAA.
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Re: SAGPA

Postby mak » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:14 am

A fire extinguisher is not even on SAGPA's proposed list. Saying things just to stir or be "a rebel" is not helping. I for one still carry my fire extinguisher, not for in flight use, but I would hate watching my gyro or someone elses aircraft burn or catch fire because of a re-fuelling grounding error or for what ever reason and I have to stand and watch and can't do anything about it.
Whether a CAA or ICASA inspector checks your radio license, what does it matter, it must be on board to prove that your radio is legal.
I don't think the first aid kit is for on board usage, but rather if you had an accident / incident somewhere and you need to dress some life saving wounds before medical aid arrive.
Why does gyro pilot complain about maps in an open cockpit, yet all trike pilots carry their maps in their flight suit pouches or on a knee board. It is possible. The reason for this is as backup if your GPS fails. As far as I know it doesn't have to be a paper map, it can be an electronic one or an electronic flight plan. The reason for this is to keep people like Scary Lazy Pilot from landing at FAWK and then stating that he was unsure of his position or his GPS's batteries was flat.

I also don't know what is your issue with CAA and SAGPA, we are not in competition or someone having to prove something to someone else. We are working together to make our sport safer and hopefully SAGPA through Aeroclub and with all the other Aeroclub sub-sections collectively we can tell CAA how to do this in the most practical way.
Stop wasting time on the forum, go sand and paint your gyro that you can get in the air again or go sit and think how we can solve the shortage of future AP's.
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Re: SAGPA

Postby fransstrydom » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:52 am

Observation.Gyro pilots are extremely agressive!!!.Why would that be?Mabe they are hungry.For your information Mak,a fire extinguisher is not even a CAA requirement.What do you propose?
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Re: SAGPA

Postby mak » Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:21 am

mak wrote:A fire extinguisher is not even on SAGPA's proposed list.
fransstrydom wrote:a fire extinguisher is not even a CAA requirement.What do you propose?
SCARY PILOT
fransstrydom wrote:Observation.Gyro pilots are extremely agressive!!!.Why would that be?
Looking at the above, can you now see why?
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Re: SAGPA

Postby fransstrydom » Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:15 am

I can clearly see you have never flown with a map before.The only map for our mudsuckers is one with street names on it.As you know,i have NEVER EVER been lost before,not even without a gps,because of my superior sense of direction.I agree that it should be your own preference to carry a fire extinguisher(goodness i battled with that one's spelling) or a first aid kit.Radio station license.....BULL.
The situation with the APS.I know of AP'S /AMO'S that appointed youngsters to be trained,and later refused to give recognition for experience gained.This is fact,not a second hand story.There appear to be no system in place,and it happens on a ad hoc basis.Apprentices should register at RAASA or who ever when they are employed by an AP/AMO,with a daily log of experience gained.a proper system needs to be developed.
Your attempt to make our sport safer is commendable,but please dont force a ramp inspection list down my throat in the sake of safety.Secunda recently proved that not even a fire fighting team were able to contain a fire,what are you going to achieve with your pisolie little fire extinguisher.Carrying a lot of extra weight in an already marginal situation with gyro's in specific is extemely dangerous.Gyro's are designed to not fly,and a hot humid overloaded day you need to throw weight of.I appreciate the fact that on a day like that you would rather throw Tinkerbel out and keep the fire extinguisher
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Re: SAGPA

Postby mak » Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:11 pm

fransstrydom wrote:what are you going to achieve with your pisolie little fire extinguisher.
You have clearly never seen the fire extinguisher I carry onboard.
early-burn2-1.jpg
Photos of RAMP inspection checklist items
early-burn2-1.jpg (21.22 KiB) Viewed 878 times
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Re: SAGPA

Postby fransstrydom » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:37 pm

Now your talking.I am for once speechless.
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Re: SAGPA

Postby MPL Pilot » Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:40 am

Ai tog Francois!

We note your aggressive nature and behavior, not even the trees are safe when you are flying that sicamor :lol:

On a more serious note:
Quote from Condor
" 2. On of the biggest headaches experienced by RAASA is that for certain friends CAA still issue ATF's for not type certified planes. This is totally against the agreement between RAASA and CAA and BIG ROTHER play to their own rules and do what they want as section membership is not confirmed at CAA (it is of no concern to them). RAASA now loose control and cannot provide any accurate statistics on aircraft or owners."

As far as I know they are building gyro's for commercial use and not for recreation.

Then a question to SAGPA
If I want to become an AP on the UFO, what is the procedure to follow to obtain an AP rating?

Thanks fellow aviators.

Ps, we should have an age restriction on this topic!
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