Gyros burning after impact?

[Splinter]

Thank you Johan this is exactly what I want to hear. The fact that SAGPA is also working on the problem is a great relief, although not on the fires themselves but the reasons for accidents that result in fire. As stated before, I have not been in the gyro game for long and therefore I asked that I be corrected if I have a fact wrong. Thanks Learjet I was not aware that SAGPA was busy working in that direction.

I do not expect SAGPA to solve the problem for us. What I meant by "demand" is that they try and support us when things get tuff with regards to the red tape. For instance, if we find a solution that could really work I do not have the knowledge to get the mod application approved. That is when someone like me will need them to help.

Johan I agree with you, no gyro should fly without approval for any mod and I did not intend for people to understand that I promote flying without approval. I think you have some great ideas that could work very well, I would like to phone you at some stage in this regard.

I do however get the feeling many guys in the gyro community are not really worried about this problem as they have been flying for many years and rely on their training to keep them out of high ROD situations. The fact of the matter is that you cant plan for everything, like where you have your engine failure or birdstrike, if there is a telephone line that you did not see or even a hole in the ground you did not anticipate! At this stage we are not expecting the unexpected and that's why gyro pilots burn to death. Training will only take you that far, then you either need blind luck or fire prevention.

Is this problem something that should be researched for a gyro community as a whole to promote safety or does every pilot do their own thing (with mod approval), whether it is trying to prevent a fire or thinking that it could never happen to them?

If it is the latter of the two options and every owner does his own thing (with mod approval) there is no need to have my suggested meeting and we just wait for the next complacent pilot to burn in a fire!

[MADDOG]

Hi Johan

My opinion and suggestions:

A rigid fuel tank under the craft ends up having to take a large brunt of the impact. During the impact sequence it will be compressed and then any rupture or split in the tank (most likely from the mast movement) will force fuel out under pressure. This mist of fuel is perfect for combustion and it will only take contact with the exhaust to ignite it. (The turbo is roughly the same temp as the exhaust, so not really the culprit here). To make the tank out of bomb proof carbon/kevlar honeycomb material is not a option in my opinion as you will have to add huge weight and cost to make effectivly half the craft crash proof like a black box recorder. If you line the existing tank with a rubber bladder tank, the current stucture is free to absorb as much crash energy as it can and when it ruptures, the fuel is still held in the bladder which is free to expand and follow the shape of the now broken original tank. All this is available as racecar technology and made in RSA by Buck Rogers. In Formula type race cars the fuel system goes one step further by fitting self sealing fuel line couplings, but this is mainly cause the entire engine is expected to break off during a crash thus severing the fuel lines. I do not think this is the case with Gyros, but a good idea will be to fit a G impact cut off switch for the fuel pumps. Also available to fit right now.

Nomex suits are also made locally by 1st Race (Autoquip) or ATS motorsport supplies. I am sure they will make them in a flight suit style. These suits have diffent FIA approved fire resistant ratings, and I am sure that to fly in these will give an unfortunate accident victim around 1 minute to get out of a burnng craft. All that is left to do is to get rid of the cheap crappy auto after market seat belt buckles. Fit proper metal buckles that will not melt in a fire.

All of the above can be adopted within a matter of weeks. We do not have to wait to burn another pilot before we fix this. We do not have to wait to follow the poms - we can lead the way here in the RSA.

[apollolight]

Great post Johan, I'm sure this will also benefit other aircraft...

I look forward to reading about the tests and mods going forward...

[t-bird]

Hi Learjet

Maybe my judgement is clouded by that fact that two of my friends died in fires in Magni’s but here goes.

The Magni’s fuel tank rises behind your back and wraps around the mast. The MT-03,Ela and RAF fuel tank stops at seat level. These fuel tanks are from fiberglass and any movement from the mast against them will crack it.

Call it cigarette box statistics but Magni’s are more prone to burn after accidents.

There have been more accidents in other gyros due to blade flap and none of them caught fire.

Here is a few accident examples of gyros that caught fire.
Sycamore at Rhino – this accident happened due to loss of a rotor and I think any gyro would have burned
RAF years ago – again impact was very hard and any gyro would have burned
MT03 – One at Mosselbay that I know of
Xenon - None
Ela – None
Magni – I count 4 or 5

Am I the only person who is noticing a trend ??

Attached is very, very sad extract from the Mabalingwe crash.
MABALINGWE CRASH MAGNI M16
1.15.3 The accident was considered survivable as the impact forces were not deemed to
be of a severe nature. However, the post-impact fire ensued before the occupants
could evacuate the aircraft, resulting in their succumbing to the post-impact fire.

[saraf]

Just to clarify that the RAF Fuel tank is NOT made out of Fiberglass. And in fitted to the cabin , that acts as a support for the tank. The cabin also acts as a firewall between the tanks and the engine. From what I have seen is that there is nothing between the tank and the engine that prevents the fuel from getting in contact with the engine in most tandem gyros.

The way I see it if I may say:

Problem Nr 1: The door nor any other components is suppose to come off in flight. If the door did not come off the accident would not have happened.
Problem Nr 2: I have seen with my own eyes how thin the cabin structure of some of these gyros are. There is nothing that will protect you in case of an accident.
Problem Nr 3: In the last year 90% of gyro accidents that happened the gyro burst into flames, I only know of one that did not , but the guy informed me that he was soaked in fuel after the accident on his farm. He was lucky it did not ignite.

Something needs to be done to sort out the problem of these gyros that burn on impact.........................

[Learjet]

Trying to determine stats & trends without knowing actual number of hours flown by type is utterly fruitless:

Between 1997 and 2008 there were 7 CAA accident reports involving ELA's and 12 involving Magni's.
That would make it seem like Magni's are more dangerous than ELA's because they have more accidents. However, the current AVDEX register lists 29 registered ELA's and 119 registered Magni's.
Assuming the numbers were the same for 2008 (which we know is not the case - but for for the purposes of this silly exercise let's assume so) we can then extrapolate that:
24% of all registered ELA's in SA had accidents as opposed to 10% of all Magni's. The demon of statistics could then allow these misleading stats to be further interpreted in several incorrect ways:
1. 1 in 4 ELA's are likely to crash compared to 1 in 10 Magni's.
2. Magni's are more than twice as safe as ELA's.
3. ELA pilots are less than half as safe to fly with as Magni pilots.

Now all of these silly suppositions are absolute nonsense and we all know that. But stats dont lie? We'll of course they do - and worse than Pinocchio when not calculated on genuine comparative data - and the only reliable way to determine comparative safety is to look at actual number of accidents per X number of total flying hours (and not by number of accidents alone)- which is exactly the way ICAO / NTSB etc do it that way.

Torture numbers, and they'll confess to anything. ~Gregg Easterbrook

[Learjet]

Problem Nr 3: In the last year 90% of gyro accidents that happened the gyro burst into flames

Kom nou Ebie, dis regtig nie waar nie

[saraf]

Hi Dave.

How many of the accidents that happened this year did the gyro not burn? The problem here is that the aircraft is not suppose to burn that easy if involved in an accident. Me and you have discussed this a long time ago already and nothing has been done.

Dave I think it is time that someone does something other wise we will loose more good people. And as hard as it sounds it is the truth.................

I do not want to get involved in a debate or mudslinging on this topic, but this is not a matter of what make of gyro burns and what not, we must fix the problem , en stop die K$K van myne is beter as joune, of myne brand nie en jou doen.................

[t-bird]

Hi Dave/Learjet

How many total Gyros and How many Magni’s ?

How many fatalities after an accident due to fire in Magni’s ? How many per other gyro types in total?

What did the manufacturer do after Basie Wessels accident on the 24 April 2008 ?

Supply metal buckles , but did they do anything to determine the cause of the fire after accidents ?

Eben is not far off if he said 90 % of MAGNI gyros burned after an accident in the current year.

3 Magni’s burned after accidents 3 fatalities one severely injured in this year.

What do you need more it is not about trying to wangle the statistic or about whatever type is better than the other.

[Learjet]

Hi Dave.

How many of the accidents that happened this year did the gyro not burn?

From available CAA / DJA Occurrence reports Jan - May 2011:

January:
Magni M22 - collided with wires. post impact fire.
MTO Sport - hard landing rollover.

February:
ELA-07 - forced landing & rollover.
Magni M16 - crashed after take-off. post impact fire

March:
ELA-07 - loss of power, forced landing.
Xenon - rollover during take-off

April:
RAF2000 - engine failre, forced landing

May:
Nil gyro

7 accident reports. 2 post-impact fires = 28.5% occurrence. Not 90%... this is why I don't dwell on matchbox stats.
So just to make myself 100% understood - I'm not for a moment advocating a head in the sand denial of gyro post-impact fires, and my track record of tackling manufacturers and pilots alike on safety issues speaks for itself. But I'm certainly not going to be baited nor entertain "my gyro is safer than yours" personal agendas based upon thumbsuck stats.

[Learjet]

Hi Dave/Learjet
Eben is not far off if he said 90 % of MAGNI gyros burned after an accident in the current year.

T-Bird, that's not what Eben said.

What he actually said was

saraf wrote:
Problem Nr 3: In the last year 90% of gyro accidents that happened the gyro burst into flames

If you're going to quote stats and statements let's keep it factual without personal agendas please.

[t-bird]

100 % of Magni's burned in current year per your stats.
I don't have a personal agenda.

It is time to accept the fact that Magni's burn after accidents and do someting about it.

[saraf]

HI T Bird,

Just to correct you I did not mention any gyro makes or manufacturers , there was a ELA that also burned and the pilot a young boy died due to the the post impact fire.

Like I said , this issue has been raised along time ago, with no effect or rectification to the problems.

The problem has to be solved , does not matter if it is a tandem gyro or side by side that burns , the problems has to be solved.

[t-bird]

Hi Eben

I was not aware of the ELA accident can you send us the details.

What has Magni done after all the burning except changing seat belt buckles ?

I have lost 2 dear friends in Magni post fire accidents and this last weekend was the last staw.

1 )Accept that there is a problem – If 100 % of your accidents ends up in a fire ball, then there is a problem,
2) Identify the cause
3) Find a solution

[Learjet]

100 % of Magni's burned in current year per your stats.
I don't have a personal agenda.

It is time to accept the fact that Magni's burn after accidents and do someting about it.

T-Bird, and using your same absurd logic on the same stats one could say that 100% of ELA-07's and 100% RAF had an engine failure problem and 100% of MTO Sport's rollover when landing- and that something needs to be done about all of these.
Of course these statements are nonsense but they typify your inherent lack of understanding of applied stats. Whenever I have transparently, and without bias presented accidents stats (CAA or DJ&A - not "mine") in order that we might all learn from the nature and scope of these accidents, you ALWAYS seek to make a skewed comparison between gyro types. Really, I think the gyro community in South Africa has moved on from this. It's time you did too.