RAF Flight Behaviour

[THI]

Google translator your friend.

I hope it did it well.

Geagte Menere,

Ek het geen ure op RAF.

Ek het net 'n paar uur op ZEN1.

Ek is wetenskaplike, rekenaarprogrammeerder en wiskundige, met PhD in genetika.
Ek het gewerk met 'n baie rekenaar simulasies van ingewikkelde verskynsels.

Lugdinamika is wetenskap, nie godsdiens nie.

Ek baseer my mening op wetenskaplike bewyse.
Ek baseer my mening op die resultate van wetenskaplike eksperimente en rekenaarsimulasies.

Maar jy is reg. Dit is een van my besigheid, as Saraf sal
'n HS oor hul masjiene of nie.
Dit is hul besigheid besluit.

Ek is nie van plan om enige meer om kommentaar te lewer oor die onderwerp,
maar word direk paar vrae gevra, voel ek verplig om te beantwoord.

Jammer vir daardie.

Vlieg veilig.

Paul

Almost. But we get the just.

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner

[PTKay]

Almost. But we get the just.
...

Thanks.
Next time I'll try to do better.
I have a Dutch friend, who has family in SA, I'll ask him for help.

[Gyronaut]

Dear Sirs,

I have no hours on RAF.

I have just few hours on ZEN1.

I am scientist, computer programmer and mathematician, with PhD in genetics.
I have worked a lot with computer simulations of complicated phenomena.

Aerodynamics is science, not religion.

I base my opinion on scientific evidence.
I base my opinion on the results of scientific experiments and computer simulations.

I for one am interested to hear what you have to say and share with us PTKay. It appears I may be misguided in my ill-informed opinion thus far according to some. Please share these experiments and simulations with us so we can all learn and be better informed.

[PTKay]

...

I for one am interested to hear what you have to say and share with us PTKay. It appears I may be misguided in my ill-informed opinion thus far according to some. Please share these experiments and simulations with us so we can all learn and be better informed.

First of all I would quote again the CAA test results as posted
in the starting post of this thread:

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cf ... 009-07.pdf

Quote from the report:

‘The gyroplane had unacceptable longitudinal
dynamic stability above 70 mph and unacceptable
directional stability with the doors fitted.’


I'll try to go through my files and post some more information.

[PieterKotze]

PTKay,

Just to reconcile, I for one and I presume all the guys here have read the AIIB report. If you have better data to supply, great, if not lets move on. From my side, I am just a simple gyro owner/flyer, and will never fly a RAF, not for safety or other reasons, but because I LOVE my Zen1 and if I have to change I will go back to my trainer, the Magni M16! But for the benefit of me and of course my fellow gyro pilots if they feel the need, I want to learn, learn from every single pilot out there, whether via this forum and pilots with lots of hours or whether, sorry to say, via people that have died practising this great sport! Lets all learn where the demons are! I am sure that the inherent instability of the RAF has a place in my knowledge of my gyro, which by the way is also a side by side and she can be a bitch if she wants to. So without knocking Eben and his team, guys please tell us, where are the demons? The fact that our fellow aviator seems to have died of a medical condition rather than pilot error, as bad as it seems, FANTASTIC and TERRIBLE, but his untimely and terrible death has resurrected the AIIB report, so instead of attacks from the RAF team/owners and a continued demand for answers from the others, we are all Gyro peops...lets help each other!

So back to PT, if you have info that can help us, other of course than the AIIB report, then post it! If not, I know you are an avid GyroMan, but then rather zip it and listen and learn from the other guys. Me, I want to hear what Len, Eben, Learjet, etc have to say on this matter. Whether I would ever fly a RAF or not, is immaterial. As for the guys above that want to post in afrikaans, great, there are several of the members that will translate.

In summary, my contribution is simple, I have no affinity to any Gyro. I fly a Zen1 and adore a Magni M16, but I crave knowledge and experience, and frankly so should every one of you out there! So lets use the accident of the RAF on its way to a fantastic Bundu Bash as a catalist to analise and learn. The AIIB report really woke me up on the dangers of PIO, which seems a danger especially in side by sides, which made me test and analise my capabilities in my Gyro, so for this I am grateful for this incident, but are there other issues that I need know about? Are you all asking this question? If not, I think you are bound to end up on this forum under "accidents".

Pieter

[mak]

PTKay

I am sorry, but for a student pilot with zero hours on the relevant gyroplane I don't think you are qualified to comment. I thought you might come up with some insight with your simulation experience but then to only come up with references and quotes by third parties doesn't add any credibility to your sweeping statement that it is unstable.
I suggest you stop commenting on gyroplanes that you don't have any experience on, get your license and experience on the Zen1 so you can take me on a cross country trip next time we visit Poland and the factory. We can further discuss the topic over a bottle of Vodka if you like.

[Learjet]

...

I for one am interested to hear what you have to say and share with us PTKay. It appears I may be misguided in my ill-informed opinion thus far according to some. Please share these experiments and simulations with us so we can all learn and be better informed.

First of all I would quote again the CAA test results as posted
in the starting post of this thread:

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cf ... 009-07.pdf

Quote from the report:

‘The gyroplane had unacceptable longitudinal
dynamic stability above 70 mph and unacceptable
directional stability with the doors fitted.’

I have always tried to keep an open mind and have an objective perspective on the widely varying opinions and (often unfounded) speculation and gyro bashing etc that is unfortunately all too prevalent on the various gyro related internet forums.

However reading the link to the UK CAA / AAIB Accident Report - this is the first time I have seen the allegation of the RAF's "vulnerability to powerpushover..." officially stated in "black and white" so to speak from an apparently credible source.

Flight testing was done in Canada and according to the report although the UK CAA test pilot appears to have had limited RAF experience, it is noted that he was accompanied by RAF's "recommended instructor pilot" and flight data recording equipment was carried on board.

Given the gravitas of the UK Accident Investigation Board findings, to my mind it is important to know what the official response from RAF Canada was to this report finding? Anything else from any of us is just "stab in the dark" speculation...

[t-bird]

The RAF is UNSTABLE but Eben and has dad have proven that it is possible to overcome this with adequate training. I think their track record speak for itself.
PIO is a reality but so is stalling a fixed wing. Does not mean that fixed wing aircraft should be fitted with BRS chutes in the event of an stall.
Some fixed wing aircraft especially tail draggers are a handful on landing but it can be overcome with training.
I am very uncomfortable in a Trike especially in turbulence but yet we find pilots flying them.
Some Gyros burn on impact or roll over, should we stop flying them ???

I speak under correction but I think that Raf still holds a few speed records in US pylon racing.

[Gyronaut]

Len

If been on this ...

...
Gavin Mocke

Forgive me for not responding sooner, was having too much fun at the Carnarvon Fly in.

I feel obliged to set the record straight and I will only comment on fact, ignoring the emotional rambling and personal attacks.

Magni M24 Door
I remind you that the accident report has not been released for the accident you refer to.
Other than offering a speculative 'opinion' on my part, Magni went ahead and published the following Mandatory Service Bulletins of their own accord:

Door Latching M24 Doc.pdf

(895.28 KiB) Downloaded 896 times

SB014_issue2_ww Door Warning.pdf

(490.51 KiB) Downloaded 333 times

The supplier took it upon themselves to rectify the potential problem!

RAF time

I have .9hrs on a RAF with Mark Bellingan at Morningstar. I have flown alongside Francois in my M24 from Swellendam to Pearly Beach.

SAGPA

Although I do not feel the need to report to you on my portfolio at SAGPA I will tell you that the Syllabus was approved by the SAGPA commitee and subsequently provided to RAASA and CAA for approval during 2012. Once approved the Strategic, Operational and TP manuals will be developed. There is nothing new under the sun, therefore we will use valuable documents and information written by those who know far more than us. Please feel free to assist us with your valuable experience.

On a personal note Gavin, I do not feel the need to earn respect. I will happily stand down at SAGPA and nominate you for the position.
Let the members decide.

RAF2000

In light of the 2008 accident and the subsequent AAIB report, please enlighten me as to why your VNE (as published) is 120mph when the report states 70mph is the VNE in the UK.
As the apparent spokesman for RAF SA Gavin, I ask again, what makes it different in SA?

Len

By the way, I acquired a pilot's license in 1989, before you were born perhaps?

[t-bird]

Hi Len

Are you suggesting that SAGPA follow the world and not make their own decisions based on track record in South Africa ?

Here is a few examples if you do

Magni’s in other regions have to be fitted with a longer mast. It has been proven by engineers that the mast height is not correct. Feel free to check with Magni Italy.
Do you want to ground all the SA Magni’s and get them retro fitted with new mast, longer bendix drives etc.

Hub bars for ALL GYRO’s in Australia have a life time of 800 hours. Again proven by engineers that it is dangerous to fly it more than 800 hours. Again do you ground all gyros over 800 hours and comply with an international AD.

I don’t agree with these AD’s and incorrect operation of Gyros have led to the AD’s not the Gyro’s design.

[lion]

When I was last in Australia a couple of years ago, I spoke to the chairman of the gyro association at Caboolture airfield. He said that they had an incident with a Magni where the prop (either did or could - I cant recall which) hit the rotor (while the rotor blade was stationary) whilst taxiing. This is possible on some Magnis when the stick is held in the full aft position and the rotor blade is stationary above the prop - that is why you sometimes see guys with their rotors at 90 degrees whilst taxiing. I understand that this is the reason why Magni raised the height of the mast for Australian-bound Magnis so that they would be approved for flight by the powers that be there.

Why one would taxi with the full stick in the aft position is beyond me, but I guess that some people also need to have it written in flight manuals that you need to ensure that there is adequate fuel in the tanks so you don't run out of fuel - ask Cessna.

[Gyronaut]

No T-bird, I am not saying approved mods should not be allowed between variations on a proven type. I know that the Magni's you refer to are BCAR T certified.
Is the RAF2000?
Also, hub-bars have a component life, just like any other flight critical component. Magni's do not have a hub-bars but cheek plates.

I am saying that the UK AAIB together with the resources they use, such as the University of Glasgow etc, have better skills and qualifications to determine the facts than we do.
When Gyro's crash because of CFIW, CFIT, Pilot Error, etc. we attempt to prevent these through training or whatever means possible. When they break up during flight and informed people point at the cause, we do not deny it and attempt to blame everyone else's ignorance for it.

Lion, I agree, Blade-Flap is a known phenomenon and will happen to the uninformed in ANY rotor wing when dissymmetry of lift causes one blade to fly while the other stalls. You may attempt to design around this but it is a fact of life which we have to be trained to understand. PIO is not something that I have ever experienced in a 'New Generation' gyro. As a result I find it unacceptable that this may be killing people, regardless of their level of training.

I am done with this topic and await the official outcome of the latest accident.

[t-bird]

PIO is part of a RAF and is mitigated by training. Have a look at their track record.
I am not aware of any PIO fatalities except 2, first one was lack of training and second one heart attack.

How many people were killed on other types due to fire ? Was anything done after all the promises?

Fixed wings stall and you get stall training, some even spin.

If PIO is not for you don't fly a RAF, if fire is not for you don't fly the other types.

[Steve_SP]

Hi

An observation


""Magni M24 Door
I remind you that the accident report has not been released for the accident you refer to.
Other than offering a speculative 'opinion' on my part, Magni went ahead and published the following Mandatory Service Bulletins of their own accord:""


Question - why has the report into the SA M24 Orion accident not yet been published - why the long long wait ?


We had a fatal M24 Orion accident here in the UK - a door came open in flight, the pilot almost got the gyro back for a landing but it turned fatal close to the airfield. The UK AAIB has published a full and extensive report - please take a look. It makes reference to other Magni M24 door incidents in South Africa and France.

I would suggest that Magni did not ""...publish the following Mandatory Service Bulletins of their own accord"" - these were issued following the UK AAIB investigation and its reccomendations to the manufacturer ( see report ) and in conjunction with the AAIB.


A link to this report can be found via my Blog - just scroll down to date 28th April 2011


http://gyroaccidents.blogspot.co.uk/



If you do read the UK AAIB report ask why the SA CAA report is still pending after so long.


Regards


Steve

[PTKay]

....
So back to PT, if you have info that can help us, other of course than the AIIB report, then post it! If not, I know you are an avid GyroMan, but then rather zip it and listen and learn from the other guys....

Dear All,

so, for the beginning I would suggest carefully reading the following
interesting presentation of the dynamic stability simulation by Greg Gremminger:

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33391

I will keep posting further links, as I recover them from my memory
and my computer.

Best regards

PTKay.