FLYING PAX FOR MONEY

[Old, Fat and Hairy]

...Until you ding a pax and they sue you to a standstill. If it's a freebie you can still say you were doing it as a favour but accepting money or goods in kind may open you up to liability for expected service.

[Blue Max]

It realy looks like one is at risk taking a Pax up for money!!!!( Judgeging by your replies..)
I am of the opinion that the legal position of a pilot in command of a ML taking a passenger, is the same as that of a motor car or a motorbike operator taking a passenger for money . Why should it be different. ???
I think a M.L is safer than a minibus taxi or a motorbike and probably a motorcar, therefor a M.L. pilot should in comparrison with above come of mutch lighter if ever a case is brought to court...
I cant remember that I have ever read about a paying passenger who has sued the driver of a motor vehicle!!!
The chance of having a accident, AND being sued by a pax who has signed an imdemnity is to my opinion remote. ??? and does not warrent all the cammoflarge ing of trying to hide payment for a flip...( More so if you have seen your own arse in the accident!!!..)..????

[Tumbleweed]

Its not your injured pax to worry about, it's his wife, kids, his life insurer and medical aid that will have a lawyer seeking compensation. Then that indemnity means jack.

[Biggles]

Taking pax for flights is just like taking someone for a drive in your car. Except that anyone going for a drive in a car has a reasonable knowledge of the dangers. If there is a messup a party can argue thay they were not aware of the dangers and you did not inform them. That is where an indemnity comes in, or I suppose explaining the dangers with a witness is fine. At this piont unless you are guilty of willful neglegence (no ATF, ect, ect) you are OK.

If you take any form of renumeration you are outside the law.

I am sure there is plenty of grey areas. For example if you up the price of a room by R100 and take people for a free flip...

I generally don't think its worth the trouble. Only taken friends who have begged me and only when I was very happy with conditions.

[windswept]

Taking pax for flights is just like taking someone for a drive in your car. Except that anyone going for a drive in a car has a reasonable knowledge of the dangers. If there is a messup a party can argue thay they were not aware of the dangers and you did not inform them. That is where an indemnity comes in, or I suppose explaining the dangers with a witness is fine.

Almost, but not quite right; Whilst taking a pax for a flip is like taking someone for a drive in a car in some respects, the main problem is that the pax has no reasonable way of knowing whether the aircraft has been properly maintained, pilot properly trained. Thus part 96 requires that the aircraft is maintained by an AMO and operated through a licensed commercial operation with a list of legal requirements etc. This is for the benefit of the paying public. Secondly the pilot has to properly rated such as microlight comm pilot etc with necessary skill obtained and demonstrated. This is for the pilot obviously.

The combination of the above is to ensure that should an incident or accident occur then hopefully all parties have covered their A@&'s In other words: if operation was not properly run, pax has legal recourse and if the accident was really just an accident then pilot/operator is protected by lawful operation.

Be careful of indemnities: They are not worth the paper they are written on, especially if the operation in the first place is not within the law. Negligence cannot be covered by any document or indemnity. By taking someone for a flip and receiving anthing for it you are operating a commercial service, which if not as above, is illegal and therefore you are negligent!

If you want to take someone for a flip, do it because you want to, or because you want to get them involved in the game. However, if you need to cover costs to do so, be very careful what you are doing because Murphy will show up and make your day a misery.

As for selling shirts etc. CAA will investigate everything that happened surrounding the incident/accident and proceed accordingly. They have heard just about every story under the sun, and believe me, the ones posted are not very original! Also remember that the smiling pax at the begining of the flight will no longer be smiling when they are laying in hospital and will probably be only to happy to nail your ar$3 to the wall after the accident.

In short: Don't

[Bugwar]

Lost of people go for Microlight flips too BUT it is usually a commercial operation with all the neccessary authorazations, ratings etc.

Suppose skydiving etc have the same issues.

Question for the legal eagles out there: What about taking your wife, girfriend, kids, etc for a flip and something goes wrong and they end up in hospital. No fees charged, plane , pilot , flying, etc. all legal. Is there still liability? Should your wife sign an indemnity? Even if she has no claim the medical aid etc will still come after you...

[SoLo]

Taking pax for flights is just like taking someone for a drive in your car.

100% correct - except is just as illegal to take money from passengers when transporting them by car.
You also need a special license to do so.

[SoLo]

Almost, but not quite right; Whilst taking a pax for a flip is like taking someone for a drive in a car in some respects, the main problem is that the pax has no reasonable way of knowing whether the aircraft has been properly maintained, pilot properly trained.

And how would a passenger in your car know that you have been properly trained and that your car has been properly maintained?

[windswept]

The question comes down to the inherent penalty that is paid should something go wrong while flying. If a car has been badly maintained and it breaks down you simply pull over and call for a tow truck. If you are a poor driver you hopefully just scare a few people.

These problems in aviation end up in forced landings, accidents and LOTS of paperwork. You can't simply pull over and call for help. Ultimately the pilot also has to have a required level of skill just to do a forced landing etc. in other words should be properly trained. Think back to your training - a lot of time is spent on dealing with emergencies and developing thejudgement required to ensure a safe flight.

As I mentioned before, its not what happens when all is going well, its all about what happens when things go wrong. After the accident everything changes. The pax may see this as their opportunity to see themselves through the financial crisis and set themselves up for life. If third party property damage occurs they may also jump on the band wagon. Remember that willful negligence is a criminal charge. So just throwing up your hands and saying 'sue me, i have nothing' may very well still end up with you in a lovely SA jail!

The man in the street has no real way of knowing whether you are properly certified etc. In a perfect world Joe Public would be informed or have a magic crystal ball that was able to tell them what is required etc. The South African aviation regulations are written in such a way that it is the responsibility of the PIC to ensure legal compliance. If you are flying in a commercial operation as a pilot and doing flights for a properly cerified outfit, it is still the PIC duty to ensure that the commercial operation is properly certified in the first place.

Please remember that Joe Public sees aviation in general (Flying with wings and rotors) as an elitist thing. The misconception is that only rich people fly. I for one am NOT wealthy (I WISH I WAS - DONATIONS ACCEPTED FOR A FREE FLIGHT ) but as a result the moment that something goes wrong the 'victim' sees dollar signs and early retirement.

There will always be people doing things outside the law, which seems to be the norm in South Africa. This I suppose is all fine and dandy until something happens.

As for Skydiving etc.; they also have regulations which govern what they may and may not do. People will also try do their own thing, and wll probably get away with it until something happens.

As for the wife or friend going with you: Remember that if they are not paying for the flight in any way you are fine in that respect. Make sure that your license is valid and have met all recency requirements, the aircraft is properly and legally maintained, license fees paid, take-off and landing area clear and safe, weather as needed etc.etc Then you have nothing to worry about. It is a lot of stuff to consider and unfortunately it is ALL the responsibilty of the pilot. Ultimately whether the wife will sue you is up to bigger questions than your pilot skill!

If you have done everything required of you to ensure a safe and legal flight and something bad happens, you really have nothing to worry about except what colour to make the new wing and I would recommend you DON'T buy lotto tickets for a while.

[Morph]

Part 96 is brand new as is the "Commercial Microlight Pilots Licence". I am not sure if anyone has actually got this licence yet. So, that means the only people currently legally licenced to take a person up for a flip for money is an instructor, at a training school, as an introductory flight.

As far as sky diving is concerned that is a recognised by CAA as a commercial operation and is heavily regulated. Flying-i on this forum is heavily involved in this and can give us more detail.

Hang gliders and Powered paragliders are once again under the guise of a school with an instructor

There is no way around it, if you want to offer flips to your guests then you have to register the business, get the planes amo'd, and get the relevant qualified pilot.

Personally I do not take pax's for money bacause I feel it puts too much pressure on me, as to when, where, how long etc to fly. I will happily take someone up for a flip, and event hough I expect them to be aware of the risks, I know that there is still a risk of financial and legal issues should there is an accident. So I prefer to stick to friends, other pilots and family. If you buy me a beer in the pub afterwards, great, but that is in no way related to the flip or the value thereof.

[Dish]

Interestingly enough we all use the term taking "friends" etc for a flip very loosely.... watch how quickly a friend becomes a foe if there were to be an incident. Fortunately never happened to me but i have heard of one or two nightmare stories where an incident has ended a friendship VERY quickly and the family of said friend become the pilots biggest nightmare..??/ S**** happens in a blink of an eye??/ is the oke that you met through a mate of yours and had a beer with at the pub now a friend, is the oke who showed up at your field and introduced himself as a keen aviator and a blue bulls supporter now your best chommie??? we are all very friendly, very hospitable guys who are all keen to share our passion, but to what extent...and to what definition of the word friend?? -

Argueing that the reverse is true and that we as pilots will only fly with people with whom we are 100% comfortable (in there ability),... what would the ramification be of taking on board a passenger who flips out (no pun intended) and causes the safety of the PIC or the plane to be compromised??? Would the pilot have grounds to go after a passenger who caused a problem??? what happens if the passenger is a keen aviator and is quite savvy about airlaw???

My advice, (use it or dont) is just to be very very cautious before taking anyone for a flip. Circumstances change and even the strongest friendships could be tested over an incident. - Just my thoughts...

[wildthing]

I am repeating what has already been said but will try and highlight some details.
Under no circumstances is any form of remuneration allowed under the privileges of your MPL/PPL or NPL.
If you wish to take a friend/girlfriend for a flip then this is done at your expense and they need to made to understand that this is done at their own risk and what the inherent dangers are, this however does not indemnify you or protect you from any legal action, even if someone signs and indemnity form if they get flown for reward or otherwise their family/relatives/next of kin etc can and probably will sue you or claim some sort of damages.
If you have the required commercial ratings then you should have professional indemnity/liability insurance and the claim will be against this policy. Rest assured that your insurer will also investigate the circumstances and if any discrepancies are found then you will be left high and dry or your family will be left in the lurch or without any recourse, so think long and hard before you offer rides/flips to just anybody is it worth the risk.
As an Instructor under Part 62/ NPL you may offer training for reward without a Part 96/Commercial rating as part of the privileges of this rating.
Be aware as this does not allow for Flipping/Introduction rides under exercise three, the passenger has to be a bonafide student, if something goes wrong in the club type environment or where the flip was disguised as a introduction flight and the investigation shows that the person involved had no intention to become a student pilot then this will become a legal matter with the CAA.
Part 62 Subpart 14 makes provision for Recreational Pilots to get Part 96 authorisation, Part 96 regulates commercial operations of NTCA, y ou do not have to be an instructor rating to get this approval depending on your operations and your MOP’s. This allows for Agricultural, Aerial photography, power line inspections, game counting and flipping etc. The final regs are currently being drafted and the basic requirements can be found in the CARS Part 62. This means that here is no need for rogue/illegal operations as it specifically been provided for
There are a few applications pending but NO approvals have been issued yet but these will be processed in the near future once the final details of this regulation and technical standards have been finished, and yes it is a top priority to get them finalised.

Pierre

[windswept]

Remember that most microlight pilots hold a recreational pilot licence which means for recreation purposes only. Blik aerie pilots that hold a PPL may only fly for private purposes. The restrictions are there to protect the pilot involved, as commercial operations of any sort are a completely different ball game. Just about everything is done to limit liability. Note: I say limit, not eliminate as this is impossible. Requirements for commercial operations extend beyond liability insurance etc. They include experience requirements, certain admin processes, maintenance requirements, inspections, and yes, lots of money!

Microlights, gliders etc were never invisioned to be involved in any commercial operations beyond training, and as such new legislation is being promulgated. Until further clarification is received all flights must be concluded in accordance with the relevant CAR Part operated under. In the event of no regulation governing an aspect, it is my understanding that Part 91 has effect, which specifically excludes commercial operation without express written permission from CAA.

Involvement in airshows and repeated overflights over gatherings are also regulated and require special permission from CAA.

If you are still not convinced go read part 135, 121 and part 91 and look specifically at the responsibilties of the PIC. If the coffee is cold it is his/her fault.

Commrecial operators spend a fortune on compliance and still get burned occasionally so beware!!!

[MADDOG]

Taking a pax up in your microlight is a bit different from taking a pax in a car.

If you run into k@k with your car and hurt your pax there is the road accident he and or his family can claim from. If the same happens in you aerie they claim from you or your family funds. Big difference especially if you are no longer here to state your side of the story.

If you do it for reward in a car you need a PrDP endorsement and your car needs to be licences for commercial use for the road accident to cover you. with your plane you will still be in the same situation as above.